Rodney Edmundson
Member
I agree. A NASCAR engine making 850hp would technically pump legal in a street stock.
Street stock tech!
- Thread starter Pate11
- Start date
I agree. A NASCAR engine making 850hp would technically pump legal in a street stock.
havoline28
Active Member
Here 's what I would do, I would let every driver that runs my track know that sometime during the year we are going to tear down your car. If found to have anything illegal you will be banned from the track for a peroid of 2 weeks and you will be fined and the fine will be the amount of money you have won up to that point. Once you have been caught cheating once you come back we will then at some point tear you down again and if found to be illegal for a second time you will be banned for a period of 1 year and fined 2 times the amount you have won up to that point. We will also be randomly checking other things throughout the year. We will be taking this very serious so as to ensure everyone is on the same playing field. Now I would be all about innovation as long as it's saving money and not costing racers money. We can then have a discussion about it with every driver and have a vote on it by all. If you don't like my rules please do me and the rest of the racers a favor and don't show up to race at our track. That's right I said our track because I would want the racers to feel it's their track as well.
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DaveMcLain
Active Member
Have you ever seen them have a racer remove the usually rules mandated plug in the oil pan to have a look at the crank and rods? If the rules require a stock or stock replacement (52-54lb) crank and someone is running one that clocks in at 10lbs lighter overall that can be huge.
If I recall correctly the just state That you have to have standard stroke And bore with up to .030 over. I maybe wrong but I'm pretty sure u can run a lightened crank just not a stroker
It just says all engine components must remain stock. They used to make us pull the inspection plug. Haven't seen it done in along time either. That's why I started this post not to call anyone out but to get tracks to take tech serious again they really have been slacking the last few years. I agree that we need somone like Dave with extensive knowledge.
DaveMcLain
Active Member
A Nascar 358 would pump as having a legal displacement for a street stock because it is but that doesn't mean that engines which are checked are really legal displacement.
The P and G type of tester will NEVER read the displacement as larger than it is if there is an error it will always show the displacement as lower than it really is. This means that it will not produce a false positive. BUT if the corrections are not done is can easily measure the displacement as smaller by 10% so with engines in this size range it could be off by 30cid. 383 becoming 353cid. If the corrections for temperature are done correctly it can easily measure the displacement within 1% of actual.
If they also have a max compression ratio rule and they "pump" the engine to measure the displacement incorrectly low and then they use a "whistler" to determine the unswept volume at TDC the calculated compression ratio will be WAY off and figure to be much lower than it really is because the displacement value and thus total volume used is incorrect.
All of those engines that they checked could easily be more than 380cid yet test as legal.
RACN911
Well-Known Member
I'll give my 2 cents since the discussion seems to be civil.
I totally agree there needs to be tech to keep everyone honest. I don't think the motor issue is as big as some think. You're only getting so much air down a Rochester. Big stroke or not. I remember when I first started, Doc Koch and Marty Yates dominated. One time after the feature (after getting passed by Doc, he walked up to me and said "you just got passed by a 305". I thought he was joking but a few weeks later I started behind them both. Passed em to win my first feature. The next day I opened the hood and a plug wire was off by accident. I won on 7 cylinders.
I think if you ask most of the veteran street stock guy what they would rather have. A big motor or a good handling car and I think most would want the handling. I look back on some of the dominant bomber drivers and if you were watching their cars were almost driving themselves. Jason Zobrist. Brad venhaus doc Koch Marty Yates Jason Worley Dave Armstrong Dan Pilkington Jake Hewitt just to name a few. Them guys never got the car upset and just drove s smooth lap. Just my thoughts. Adam Koch
On another note I wish street stocks were back on street tires.
I totally agree there needs to be tech to keep everyone honest. I don't think the motor issue is as big as some think. You're only getting so much air down a Rochester. Big stroke or not. I remember when I first started, Doc Koch and Marty Yates dominated. One time after the feature (after getting passed by Doc, he walked up to me and said "you just got passed by a 305". I thought he was joking but a few weeks later I started behind them both. Passed em to win my first feature. The next day I opened the hood and a plug wire was off by accident. I won on 7 cylinders.
I think if you ask most of the veteran street stock guy what they would rather have. A big motor or a good handling car and I think most would want the handling. I look back on some of the dominant bomber drivers and if you were watching their cars were almost driving themselves. Jason Zobrist. Brad venhaus doc Koch Marty Yates Jason Worley Dave Armstrong Dan Pilkington Jake Hewitt just to name a few. Them guys never got the car upset and just drove s smooth lap. Just my thoughts. Adam Koch
On another note I wish street stocks were back on street tires.
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DaveMcLain
Active Member
Unfortunately there are numerous advantages to running more displacement in a class like this one:
A larger engine will produce a greater "draw" on a small carburetor and thus make more peak torque and more peak HP than a smaller engine everything else being equal. This is not a linear relationship so let's say you had an induction limited 350 inch engine making 350 horsepower and then switched to a 400cid short block. Power would probably not increase to 400 horsepower but it certainly could make it to 375 with no other changes.
The rules limit the engine to running with a flat top piston so if the engine were built with a greater displacement yet still had the same combustion chamber volume and a flat piston the large engine would produce a higher compression ratio. with a 76cc chamber, 7 cc valve reliefs, .043 gasket(4.080 diameter) and a zero deck a 355 makes approx 10.3:1 compression, a 383 takes it to 11:1 and a 4 inch stroke 408 makes 11.7:1 compression.
This class is also limited in the valvetrain area and again this favors running a large displacement. For every 50 cubic inches you can figure that the RPM for peak power will drop about 750rpm and peak rpm maybe even 1000. A hydraulic cam starts to have issues with control much above 6000rpm without some development work so by keeping the RPM down the camshaft can be more effective and using a more aggressive high torque lobe could also be used to an advantage without having durability problems.
I think that handling and driving ability is more important than engine size but what if you have all of those things in one package?
RACN911
Well-Known Member
I'm for sure not an expert on motors so I will take your word for what you posted Like I said earlier I totally agree with tech I was just saying a good handling car is MUCH more important than a big motor. If you have both than I would say you're gonna win some races. Are you going to win more races than someone with a smaller motor? I don't know that answer, but if I was forced to guess I would say big motor would win 55% and smaller motor would win 45% but with the stock rear trailing arms in the stock location I would guess the percentages maybe closer to each other. Track size and condition would also be a factor.
Some won't agree on the street tires but STREET stock =. STREET tires.
Some won't agree on the street tires but STREET stock =. STREET tires.
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RACN911
Well-Known Member
Yeah I will agree on the used 15" tire market but for as many tire shops that are around I'm sure if you put a bug in their ear finding them would be easier than you might think. Doesn't Jacksonville run street tires? Kinda curious how long they last compared to a Hoosier and are they more durable?
JHOP
Active Member
You would think with all the tire shops around they would be easier to find. Unfortunately that is not true. I have two customers that sell and stock a large amount of used tires and they struggle every week trying to get 15" used. There is some tracks that still requires DOT tires. Yes they are going to be more durable and will make it harder to hook up a large motor. All I'm saying is that the options that will work is getting to be less. 10 years ago we sold 3 brands and had in stock around 100 tires between the 3 brands. Now we have one brand and stock 24. That is in the 235/70R15 and some guys would run the 225/70R15 that size is no better for options.
mudface
Active Member
Personally There isn't any excuse to why St Louis/Illinois Shouldn't have the Street Stock class in the U.S. and I never could understand why you guys couldn't pull it together as a group Nominate someone like Dave Mclain to be the Director and come up with a bad ass class that would make Promoters want to pay good to put on a show at there track...Mississippi Street Stocks did it and I know you guys can do it better. Me and Dale Ray have been going all over Mississippi, Alabama and East Florida watching Dirt Racing and these tracks pay from 600.00 To mostly 1000.00 to win....even the pure stocks sometimes are racing for 1000.00 several times I've seen. Now I'm not saying the tracks up there will pay that much because they still believe Late Models are the Real Deal but at least if you all sit down came up with a set of rules as a group I'm sure the tracks up there wouldn't have a problem with it. Also when the Mississippi Street Stocks show up at a track one would think the World of Outlaws were racing with so many fans packing the stands because they put on one hell of a show.
t.nie
Patience Tester
I asked a top LM guy once how much HP his engine was making roughly and his answer was "too much for Belleville and not enough for I-55" and then he laughed.
I also had the privilege of interviewing two top LM drivers on the same night at the same race where both started about 3rd or 4th row for the feature. When it was over I went back and talked to both of them, both of whom said their car was better at different parts to the race but neither got all the way to the front. Both finished around 4-6 or so that night.
One said he put a softer tires to try and gain ground early when everyone else was on a harder RR but after 7 or 8 laps the tire went away and that was as far as he could get without some serious caution help that never came. The other did the opposite, made up nothing early but got a couple places later when his harder tires got hot and hooked up.
It was quite an eye opener. Because they were both equally as good, knowledgeable, funded and capable of winning but on that night, they did the exact opposite on tires and both got the same result. I learned a LOT from that one night about there not always being just 1 good race setup that wins, but multiple ways to approach it and neither might get you to the front. Or you can do either and still end up with the same result basically because you weren't out front when the race started.
On the tech issue, I tend to agree with car setup rather than cheater engines. However, that extra HP/torque gets you the heat race win if its tacky, so you DO have that up front starting spot in the dry slick feature when HP doesn't matter.
One of the past champions in that class and I were talking one night and his comment was "I wish I could just race a Mod or LM, because you get no respect for anything when you win in an SS, it's just accusations that you cheat better than everyone else." I think that's true, because in an LM and Mod you have a lot of leeway to spend a lot of money and be legal, yet the guys with more invested over time in those classes always seem to be the ones in front too.
I've yet to see some high dollar, money is no object rookie win in any division. The winners are usually guys who have been at it a few years, building up their experience and racing operation so maybe they can spend on more expensive, better stuff when they do. Just don't discount the fact that most of the guys up front already have their tools, equipment, spare parts bought over the years they have been doing it so they have some extra money to refine what they have now.
And don't forget you are getting beat a lot by experience, too. I mean seriously, you gotta have a pretty huge ego to think that the ONLY reason you aren't the guy out front has nothing to do with your own lack of ability or setup knowledge to make your own deal better, no, it just HAS to be the other guy (who's been racing, pitting for racers and working at this for ten years compared to your two or three) must be cheating.
If you're all that and a bag of chips, what are you doing racing at the local track anyway?
One last thing--I do agree that putting them back on street tires would even things out and reduce some costs. But I am thinking there may be some liability/safety issue there because street tires are not meant to race at dirt tracks. I seem to recall some of the worst flips I saw in SS races were caused by street tires coming off the bead and the wheel digging in, sending the car and driver for a pretty good ride now and then.
I also had the privilege of interviewing two top LM drivers on the same night at the same race where both started about 3rd or 4th row for the feature. When it was over I went back and talked to both of them, both of whom said their car was better at different parts to the race but neither got all the way to the front. Both finished around 4-6 or so that night.
One said he put a softer tires to try and gain ground early when everyone else was on a harder RR but after 7 or 8 laps the tire went away and that was as far as he could get without some serious caution help that never came. The other did the opposite, made up nothing early but got a couple places later when his harder tires got hot and hooked up.
It was quite an eye opener. Because they were both equally as good, knowledgeable, funded and capable of winning but on that night, they did the exact opposite on tires and both got the same result. I learned a LOT from that one night about there not always being just 1 good race setup that wins, but multiple ways to approach it and neither might get you to the front. Or you can do either and still end up with the same result basically because you weren't out front when the race started.
On the tech issue, I tend to agree with car setup rather than cheater engines. However, that extra HP/torque gets you the heat race win if its tacky, so you DO have that up front starting spot in the dry slick feature when HP doesn't matter.
One of the past champions in that class and I were talking one night and his comment was "I wish I could just race a Mod or LM, because you get no respect for anything when you win in an SS, it's just accusations that you cheat better than everyone else." I think that's true, because in an LM and Mod you have a lot of leeway to spend a lot of money and be legal, yet the guys with more invested over time in those classes always seem to be the ones in front too.
I've yet to see some high dollar, money is no object rookie win in any division. The winners are usually guys who have been at it a few years, building up their experience and racing operation so maybe they can spend on more expensive, better stuff when they do. Just don't discount the fact that most of the guys up front already have their tools, equipment, spare parts bought over the years they have been doing it so they have some extra money to refine what they have now.
And don't forget you are getting beat a lot by experience, too. I mean seriously, you gotta have a pretty huge ego to think that the ONLY reason you aren't the guy out front has nothing to do with your own lack of ability or setup knowledge to make your own deal better, no, it just HAS to be the other guy (who's been racing, pitting for racers and working at this for ten years compared to your two or three) must be cheating.
If you're all that and a bag of chips, what are you doing racing at the local track anyway?
One last thing--I do agree that putting them back on street tires would even things out and reduce some costs. But I am thinking there may be some liability/safety issue there because street tires are not meant to race at dirt tracks. I seem to recall some of the worst flips I saw in SS races were caused by street tires coming off the bead and the wheel digging in, sending the car and driver for a pretty good ride now and then.
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RACN911
Well-Known Member
Good descussion with good points here.
I'm not saying the street tires/ Hoosier tires are going to make or brake the class it's just my personal preference.
I'm a Clinton county fella and don't get to tri city as much as the other tracks but when I do I always hear Willies tire shop. Do they sponsor the street stocks or b mods? Either way I thank them for their support of local racing. I'm not familiar with businesses in the tri city area but I would be curious to hear what their opinion on the tire discussion is and if they think that the used tire market would hold up or if new tires would be the only option. I'm in the body shop business and their is a tire shop next door. I talked to the owner and he said that he has quite a bit more 16" but still has a few 15" tires. And you were right JHOP the owner said the new mastercrafts were right at 100 bucks. What's a new Hoosier cost now days?
I'm not saying the street tires/ Hoosier tires are going to make or brake the class it's just my personal preference.
I'm a Clinton county fella and don't get to tri city as much as the other tracks but when I do I always hear Willies tire shop. Do they sponsor the street stocks or b mods? Either way I thank them for their support of local racing. I'm not familiar with businesses in the tri city area but I would be curious to hear what their opinion on the tire discussion is and if they think that the used tire market would hold up or if new tires would be the only option. I'm in the body shop business and their is a tire shop next door. I talked to the owner and he said that he has quite a bit more 16" but still has a few 15" tires. And you were right JHOP the owner said the new mastercrafts were right at 100 bucks. What's a new Hoosier cost now days?
