another question on tire prep.......

G

GOATROPER2

Member
I have been reading all these posts on tire prep,,, my question might be off the wall but i am curious... i wonder when you are grinding your tires with a wheel or a sanding disc if it could put enough chemicals in the tire to make it illegal.. there is different kinds of chemicals used to the wheels and discs when they are made..
 
With all the years of grinding tires and the nightly grinding that goes on, has anyone been caught with illegal tires with that? No, so it more than likely will not cause an illegal tire. Almost every team grinds tires and that does not cause problems.
 
GOATROPER2 said:
I have been reading all these posts on tire prep,,, my question might be off the wall but i am curious... i wonder when you are grinding your tires with a wheel or a sanding disc if it could put enough chemicals in the tire to make it illegal.. there is different kinds of chemicals used to the wheels and discs when they are made..
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I dont understand why people are freaking out! Have people always used grinders...yes. Have people always washed their cars...yes! People are NOT being penalized for using these things! If they find a speck trace of soap in your tire sample you will not be accused of cheating. The lab report comes back with each chemicals name and how much. There is a certain amount that is normal to come back for doped tires. For example in micrograms...or in some other people's cases percentages which is like soaking a tire in a pool for days lol. These chemists know what these chemicals are and can specify whether they are used as a doping substance.
 
who says i am freaking out?????? i just asked a question,,,, and i wished that UMP would post the findings of the stuff that made the tire illegal
 
GOATROPER2 said:
who says i am freaking out?????? i just asked a question,,,, and i wished that UMP would post the findings of the stuff that made the tire illegal
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The part about UMP posting the results would be what would stop these posts about tires. It would put an end to all the guessing.
 
Not going to happen. His tire report is none of mine or anyone elses business other than UMP. All we are priveliged enough to know is the legality. Unless we are all chemists we won't be able to understand the lab report anyhow. If you have questions regarding what can and cannot be done involving a tire I suggest you call UMP. It will stop the guessing as well.
 
Need4Speed said:
If you have questions regarding what can and cannot be done involving a tire I suggest you call UMP. It will stop the guessing as well.
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The most intelligent post ever made (including any of my own LOL) regarding this issue. Thank you Whitney.
 
Unless you are paying the chemists/lab enough $, you are not going to find the said "undetectable" stuff.

Question is:
Will UMP spend some of their lute to get the proper lab tests?
 
I've seen several of the recent GC Mass Spec tests(not just UMP), and for the most part I could tell if the tire was legal or illegal. There were a few where I needed to call the chemist I work with to understand it further, but he cleared it up for me quickly. It really doesn't matter if you use anything on a tire or not because if the baseline for the testing does not come from the track raced on that night, out of the same tire batch, then the test holds no water. You can't go off a baseline of a brand new tire, never run on that dirt that night and out of a different rubber batch and expect to see the same results or even close enough results to be able to say that tire meets specs per the manufacturer. The whole process is messed up.
 
bleed_blue16 said:
I've seen several of the recent GC Mass Spec tests(not just UMP), and for the most part I could tell if the tire was legal or illegal. There were a few where I needed to call the chemist I work with to understand it further, but he cleared it up for me quickly. It really doesn't matter if you use anything on a tire or not because if the baseline for the testing does not come from the track raced on that night, out of the same tire batch, then the test holds no water. You can't go off a baseline of a brand new tire, never run on that dirt that night and out of a different rubber batch and expect to see the same results or even close enough results to be able to say that tire meets specs per the manufacturer. The whole process is messed up.
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All of the tests I have seen there are more chemicals missing from the tire than the ones they find. I have seen anywhere from 3-6 chemicals missing from the bench test tire to the sample tire, technically that tire is not conforming with the bench tire so the lab says. The lab doesnt make the call to throw people out, that is the promoters job.

I have seen lab tests where a treated tire passed, I have seen untreated tires fail and the best one yet, I have seen treated tires fail but the lab found chemicals that werent even in the prep that was used. In the last 2 years I have only seen 2 test where someone failed and they actually listed the ingrediants of the tire prep used.
 
Chris,

This is something I've tried to tell everyone, even the sanctioning bodies for the past three years. Some do listen and they have began to see what is being said and what is actually being done, but you have a large group on this site that just don't want to listen. All you will hear is "it's against the rules". When someone gets deemed illegal by a sanctioning or promotor, and never used any type of tire treatment, that's not right. I wish more would listen to that part rather than jumping to conclusions.
 
Now the pushers of the illegal products are trying to dis-credit the lab tests so they can continue to rake in their dollars and drive more and more people out of racing!
 
I wish we would just end the whole tire hoopla and get on with it. I know people are cheating and it is a never ending game in this sport. It is a risk you take with cheating, by losing respect and losing some fans, and also getting a bad name for yourself. It doesn't matter what half of you fans have to say, they are still going to do it. Trust me, I love the racing community, some of the hardest working loyal people I have met in my life. Also some of the nicest giving people also. I also know we couldnt do it without you. I have nothing bad to say of Mr. Gieseking, i don't know him really. He is just a business man trying to make money and I respect him for that cause he obviously does good work. On the other side of that though, he has made some excitement on this board. I don't agree with his work as me being a racer myself. But you gotta look at both sides some time people. He is just making a living. Like I said, I don't know the guy, or approve of his work for the racing community, but he is just putting meals on the table.
 
jdearing said:
Now the pushers of the illegal products are trying to dis-credit the lab tests so they can continue to rake in their dollars and drive more and more people out of racing!
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There are ways to put a stop to tire treating. All of the asphalt tracks in my area have done it with good success. This is what has to be done to stop it.

Have 1 spec tire. All racers buy there tires at the track, mount them and leave them in the impound area until the cars are ready to go on the track. Once cars come off the track they have to take off the tires and put them back in the impound area. At the end of the night if you wish to run any of the tires the fallowing week you turn the tires back in to the officials and they keep them til the fallowing week. If series really wanted to stop the prep this is how they would operate. For the series or tracks that deem tire prep illegal I wish this is what they would do. That way people could get off our backs and go back looking for big motors and traction control. We as a company do a lot more than tire treatment for the racers, we make track treatments for dirt tracks that are sold all over the country so even if you refuse to prep tires you might possibly still be riding on our treatment.
 
jdearing said:
Now the pushers of the illegal products are trying to dis-credit the lab tests so they can continue to rake in their dollars and drive more and more people out of racing!
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Im not saying the labs are not creditable, but I have personally talked with the lab that does 90% of the testing. They told me that they are not going to make the decision if someone is legal or not that is up to the promoter. Our chemist have reviewed lab results and some are 100% illegal and others it is a very questionable call due to the amount of chemicals the lab finds in the tire. A tire is like a sponge, if someone puts down prep in front of you on the track your tires will pick that up. I have tests where someone was called wrong for Toluene in the tire. First of all if someone uses straight Toluene as a tire prep they are hurting themselves more than helping, and if they were to of applied straight Toluene to the tire there would be a lot more than the trace that was found in this particular tire, either way the promoter called this person wrong. Stripped of winnings and points because there was a trace of Toluene on an un-treated tire. The lab run the test and said the tire didnt conform, the promoter who probably had no idea how to read the test through this person out.

If someone gets busted for cheating I think they should have the book thrown at them. But people who lose money, points and credibility because of a bad call on the promoters end is not right. I am against cheating 100%. But the products we sell are are not illegal in all forms of racing or in all forms or dlm racing. We are not driving people out of racing, people can not keep up if they cant spend as much as the next person, money drives people out of racing. I am a racer myself and I know how discouraging is to take every penny I make and sink it into racing just to stay competitive. I dont take vacations or buy myself nice things, I race. I have thought about the cost vs reward many of times and have seriously debated selling out myself multiple times. I love racing and I wont to see the sport succeed. But telling everybody were killing each other with chemicals and thats the reason racing is dying is just ridiculous. I worked for a company that made a fuel additive that was huge in your area, the ingredients in that product was worse than anything Ive seen used on tires and that was being burned and inhaled by anyone that was around.
 
Track-Tac Products said:
Im not saying the labs are not creditable, but I have personally talked with the lab that does 90% of the testing. They told me that they are not going to make the decision if someone is legal or not that is up to the promoter. Our chemist have reviewed lab results and some are 100% illegal and others it is a very questionable call due to the amount of chemicals the lab finds in the tire. A tire is like a sponge, if someone puts down prep in front of you on the track your tires will pick that up. I have tests where someone was called wrong for Toluene in the tire. First of all if someone uses straight Toluene as a tire prep they are hurting themselves more than helping, and if they were to of applied straight Toluene to the tire there would be a lot more than the trace that was found in this particular tire, either way the promoter called this person wrong. Stripped of winnings and points because there was a trace of Toluene on an un-treated tire. The lab run the test and said the tire didnt conform, the promoter who probably had no idea how to read the test through this person out.

If someone gets busted for cheating I think they should have the book thrown at them. But people who lose money, points and credibility because of a bad call on the promoters end is not right. I am against cheating 100%. But the products we sell are are not illegal in all forms of racing or in all forms or dlm racing. We are not driving people out of racing, people can not keep up if they cant spend as much as the next person, money drives people out of racing. I am a racer myself and I know how discouraging is to take every penny I make and sink it into racing just to stay competitive. I dont take vacations or buy myself nice things, I race. I have thought about the cost vs reward many of times and have seriously debated selling out myself multiple times. I love racing and I wont to see the sport succeed. But telling everybody were killing each other with chemicals and thats the reason racing is dying is just ridiculous. I worked for a company that made a fuel additive that was huge in your area, the ingredients in that product was worse than anything Ive seen used on tires and that was being burned and inhaled by anyone that was around.
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AMEN! Excellent post!
 
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