The truth about why tire testing will never work realistically

ExtremeRaceCars said:
Just for the sake of argument... If in fact it is possible to get a "false positive" from the racing surface or from cleaning your tires then everyone would be found with illegal tires. The fact is that is not the case. Not every tire is found to be illegal, therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that those tires that have been found to be illegal have been treated differently than all the other tires. Washing your tires with simple green that is diluted in water with a scrub brush is not the same as soaking your tire with simple green(or any other chemical) and wrapping it in plastic. They don't call it "soaking" for nothing.
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I agree 100%

The limited/minimal amount of contact a tire has with contaminated dirt, simple green, antifreeze spill, etc. will not allow chemical permeation into the tire at a level anywhere near what soaking or rolling tires for 24 to 36 hours will. From what I understand, Giesekings junk, and VenomJuice are rolled into the tire from the inside, taking as long as 36 to 48 hours rolling time and then up to 1 week for curing.

Now you rocket scientists can believe what you want, but I know damn good and well that a tire that has been soaked or rolled for 36 to 48 hours in a prep and then cured for a week will have a much higher foreign chemical composition that one that has merely rolled thru oil, or been raced (and had rubber worn off) on a contaminated race track.

I've seen many post urging us to micro-analyze the lab results. Are any of you making these claims qualified to do so? Or, are you just repeating the rhetoric of your friends....the known tire cheats?
 
If UMP didnt keep theyre test details under wraps so much it would eliminate alot of doubt. Maybe a tire rolling through contamination on the track will make it fail. Maybe it wont. But nobody including Dean and Ed know beyond a shadow of a doubt. The information necessary just isnt being made available.

Solution: Eliminate the variables. Test all right rear tires at a given race track on a race over 50 laps AND a race where pure h2o is used on the dirt. By testing every car, you eliminate a variable or two. But this stuff UMP is using now is just plain shady. Especially considering they wont talk details about their test procedures.
 
There is nothing shady about what UMP is doing as far as tire testing. If they put out what they are testing for, then the guys making the tire dope adjust their formulas.

It costs way too much money to test every car that starts the feature. Your UMP Membership fee would have to go up about 10x what it is.

Most of those trying to say that rolling through something on the track, or the water the track uses has an effect on the samples, are ones either selling the stuff or using the stuff.
 
The only way to stop it completely is too make it legal. Everything else is just chasing bad guys who are always a step ahead and doing it anyway. We all know there are too much politics involved for to happen however that doesn't change the truth. That's why Karting made it legal. Policing effectively is impossible.
 
It isn't legal in the World Karting Association..

It won't ever be legal in dirt racing because of all the hazardous chemicals they are using..
 
tire doping is not legal and i really hope it doesnt become legal to do it either and in thekrts if they wnt back to treaded tires instead of slicks you wouldnt haveto treat your tires comeon guys you are racing dirt it is stupid to run slick tires ona dir track
 
We never have and never will use it but jimmy, so tell us why are tires and trailers are stained after running I55 track, since my cars have never used it and a former sponsor of the track and myself helped purchase this dust chemical is what we are told the stains are from. If it leaves stains after the race it does not take rocket science to know there is a chemical on your tire and this only happens at i55! May pass a test but last I checked the water at home does not turn my tires blue or green!
 
kingeddy said:
I agree 100%

The limited/minimal amount of contact a tire has with contaminated dirt, simple green, antifreeze spill, etc. will not allow chemical permeation into the tire at a level anywhere near what soaking or rolling tires for 24 to 36 hours will. From what I understand, Giesekings junk, and VenomJuice are rolled into the tire from the inside, taking as long as 36 to 48 hours rolling time and then up to 1 week for curing.

Now you rocket scientists can believe what you want, but I know damn good and well that a tire that has been soaked or rolled for 36 to 48 hours in a prep and then cured for a week will have a much higher foreign chemical composition that one that has merely rolled thru oil, or been raced (and had rubber worn off) on a contaminated race track.

I've seen many post urging us to micro-analyze the lab results. Are any of you making these claims qualified to do so? Or, are you just repeating the rhetoric of your friends....the known tire cheats?
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King you are 100 percent correct! And ive said this before! They are not looking for simple green chemicals as those will not pop a tire on a chemical test. yes it does shine the tire. But it does not soak into the tire per chemical lab tests. They cut pieces of the tire off for samples. They look deep into the tire and look for pore seepage. If you soak a tire inside out and it bleeds through....bingo thats what they are looking for. The ones caught are ones who have cheated tires. No doubt about it. Was it one they didnt know about? Who knows? Do all criminals tell the truth when caught? Nope! Im not saying everyone is 100 percent guilty. But a cheated tire is a cheated tire. UMP is not stupid enough to blow this up into something that will come back to haunt them. Trust me they have their I's dotted and T's all crossed. Also this is due to tracks being help responsible for contaminating soils. They have to do this! Go google that for karting and its being banned their as well due to tracks can have huge cleanup fees for soils that come back to haunt them. Oh trust me i know of oils fuels and added stuff going on the grounds at a weekly show. But these are chemicals that have the way of leaving huge footprints on a soil for years on end and its why its being done. If they didnt test you would most likely see EPA agents visiting tracks where UMP goes to on a weekly basis to see whats going on. If you prove to them you have a handle on it looks alot better in the long run. We haul and deal with hazmat materials all the time and this is the way it works. I can give you stories on end to back up what i just said including where i work.
 
20rocks said:
You can treat a tire to make it"fire"and it doesn't necessarily Chang the durometer reading if it were that simple there would be no need for lab tests.open tire rules mean nothing bloomquist Chris maddened and the others run open tire rule and been caught it is about making the tires work better and last a few nights longer.
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True as well......good post!
 
For those holding fast on the "contaminated race track dirt" theory, I have a question. How does contaminated dirt leach into a tire that is under continuous abrasion? If the tire wasn't treated before it came to the track, how does 25 -50 laps of heat cycles and burning off rubber (via abrasion) allow a chemical to permeate a realatively non-poreous surface???? Backwards Osmosis????????????
 
You would be suprised how much dirt gets into a tire!! Again most of you have no clue what you are talking about and dont know the first thing about tires or tire prep! First off the prep is not used for just softening a tire so a durometer check wont do anything. The reason the tires are wrapped in seran wrap is to.keep natural oils from evaporating! with that being said, if you compare a two year old tire to a new tire they will not match due to the fact that some of the natural oils are gone out of the tire! Second of all if you wanna do a durometer check that will not work either. A new tire that has not been ran or ground on.is going to punch higher than one that has! Third, you can all kinds of prep to a tire that will never change the durometer but give it tons of bite or disperse the heat or both! There are so many things that go into this that most of you need to educate yourselves on. Yes wka made tire prepping illegal. Wka also all but fell off of the map! Do i agree with/ like tire prepping? NO!! Do i think it will go anywhere?? Unfortunately, no!

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This will eventually get nasty with lawyers at some point. I'm not convinced the testing is accurate, especially when they don't reveal the results. And yes I understand why they don't but when you publicly ruin a persons name I gotta believe you better have your facts and be ready to present them. It's unfortunate, but I see it eventually coming to this.
 
i have no idea how this tire testing works. from what i read, these sanctioning bodies dont announce what is found on these tires, just that they dont pass a test. all i am saying is if i drive to hoosiers factory with brand new wheels, mount new tires up, dump motor oil, dump carb cleaner, pee on the floor, etc and roll tires through it would that show up on a test? how sensitive are these tests? is it like a finger print test where if i touch something with my finger it would show up or does it really need days of marinating to show up? the whole problem here is that i have had several people suggest to me i should 'prep' my tires not to gain an advantage, but to not be at a disadvantage. there must be a lot of people out there doing this.
 
jdearing said:
There is nothing shady about what UMP is doing as far as tire testing. If they put out what they are testing for, then the guys making the tire dope adjust their formulas.

It costs way too much money to test every car that starts the feature. Your UMP Membership fee would have to go up about 10x what it is.

Most of those trying to say that rolling through something on the track, or the water the track uses has an effect on the samples, are ones either selling the stuff or using the stuff.
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I totally agree with this assessment.
 
kingeddy said:
I agree 100%

The limited/minimal amount of contact a tire has with contaminated dirt, simple green, antifreeze spill, etc. will not allow chemical permeation into the tire at a level anywhere near what soaking or rolling tires for 24 to 36 hours will. From what I understand, Giesekings junk, and VenomJuice are rolled into the tire from the inside, taking as long as 36 to 48 hours rolling time and then up to 1 week for curing.

Now you rocket scientists can believe what you want, but I know damn good and well that a tire that has been soaked or rolled for 36 to 48 hours in a prep and then cured for a week will have a much higher foreign chemical composition that one that has merely rolled thru oil, or been raced (and had rubber worn off) on a contaminated race track.

I've seen many post urging us to micro-analyze the lab results. Are any of you making these claims qualified to do so? Or, are you just repeating the rhetoric of your friends....the known tire cheats?
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from and I think the tire cheating has to stop. But it needs to be done right.

Are you 100% sure that the chemical in the dirt at I55 does not factor into these tests? I know for a fact the chemical is on the tire after a race. The next morning when I wash my tires with water they have a blue tint to them and I have to use a brush to scrub it off.

I've been offered samples and tire juice from a lot of people. Never once used it. The fact that I think it's a possibility that there are other factors that could affect the test does not make me one of the guys using it.
 
Birky and Mars tires came back clean. They raced on the same surface. So, I would say ya, I'm 100% sure.

A couple of more thoughts.....

Many teams run nitrogen in their tires. If the labs are only using baseline testing/comparison. Why hasn't anyone been busted for nitrogen? Nitrogen would not be in the baseline would it???

If "tire juice" samples have been offered to you, don't you think it is relatively easy for a sanctioning body to acquire the product and have it analyzed and the chemicals identified? And once the labs know what they are looking for......well, you get my point.

I believe the labs are using a baseline test to determine if a tire is suspect, and testing further if requested to do so. It is not nearly as hard or expensive for a lab to identify those illegal chemicals as some would like you to believe.
 
King once again a really good post. In the past when people got busted their fans got on message boards and voiced their negative opinions about the tire testing. but i have yet to see an actual driver get on a forum and say the words "these tire tests are 100 percent false and swear on the bible that im innocent!" But yet when someone gets busted are they really going to let out what really is going on? The only person i seen who actually bucked up and took it was the Kloos team. And that showed me alot right there. Right or wrong they basically said :hey tires were tested and were deemed bad. we accept the punishment and will move on and a team". Big guns like Feger Bloomer and now Owens have alot more riding on things like this and im pretty sure they were advised by a lawyer if they did seek one to not argue the facts. As lab results hold alot of value in any case right or wrong. its just the way it is. If you donot like tire testing which everyone is able to be given take up bowling or golf. I dont know what to tell you. Ive seen company after company fight lab results in court and it never has been done in my time. Even had a driver take lab results from a urin test to 3 different courts and same result. I dont know if he ate too many poppy seeds or wasnt 100 percent factual on what he did but it cost him a job. And labs have to be spot on to make those decisions so they are actually pretty up and up businesses. they have alot riding on their shoulders and fully know what can happen if they donot do tests like they should do. And here is another thing to think about. UMP or whoever does the testing is letting off the driver pretty easy compared to what can actually happen. Think about it. They have been deemed using a tire altering chemical. No chemical out there that alters a tires composition(ok so Nick's stuff was deemed ok in his own little world) and is safe for the enviroment. None. If you get caught at some local tracks(google search!) and get caught using a tire altering chemical you can be fined for cleanup costs! Guess how much that can be? Tens of thousands! Let alone your name is now out there as someone who has done this and a red flag is thrown anywhere you go from there on out. Here is a baseline article from a couple of years ago and it even states there is no know altering chemicals thats out there that doesnt hurt the enviroment and that comes from a tire advisor http://www.onedirt.com/news/tire-tr...ng-tires-a-competitive-advantage-or-cheating/ And as ive said i know about oils fuels and coolants that get dropped weekly at tracks but the stuff used in tire preps are all hazmat materials and dealt with kid gloves. You have manifests proper quantity records your supposed to keep and actually supposed to have proper licenses to even haul that stuff around even in small amounts depending on what the chemical is. Ive seen companies that were closing or moving and didnt make a spill that would make me go after them in ways that add up quickly but ive seen it and ive helped clean it up. When EPA or any governing agencies get involved its not good for anyone which is why they have to show they test for it and deal with it harshly. Like i said its part of the game. Dont like it go watch a little league game but then again those get out of hand too sometimes by everyone involved.
 
Why not just do this have hoosier start making the tires already ground cut and siped and just do like nascar the teams go get there tires mounted rt there on the spot but wait then everyone would complain takes to much time and money.
 
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