updates from granite?

inTENSE said:
As far as I know the 'Light" blue flag you are talking about means hold your line, not move out of the line you are racing to avoid running the leaders line. How are you supposed to know where the leader is running??
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Well said. If the lapped cars were to suddenly go up the track and get into the leaders trying to go around them..then you would have people on here complaining about that. It means hold your line..leaders are coming to pass you. If they cannot pass you without taking you out and your holding a solid line..it is the leaders fault 100 percent
 
Lapped cars deserve the same respect as any other car. Had he been racing him for the lead and made that same contact, causing him to spin, you certainly wouldn't be on here complaining that they sent him to the back.
 
From dirt on dirt.

Kiefer hated to be in the middle of the controversy. "I don't think they should have put him to the back. ... I was in his way," the St. Charles, Mo., driver said. "I have a rear-brake problem with my car, and we were really struggling, and I saw the move-over flag and was trying to get out of the way. He was just trying to come in there and pass me, and made some contact."
 
WEAVER said:
From dirt on dirt.

Kiefer hated to be in the middle of the controversy. "I don't think they should have put him to the back. ... I was in his way," the St. Charles, Mo., driver said. "I have a rear-brake problem with my car, and we were really struggling, and I saw the move-over flag and was trying to get out of the way. He was just trying to come in there and pass me, and made some contact."
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The lap flag means hold your line. As quoted above if Kiefer held his line there would have been no contact. The yellow came out as a result of contact between the 2 cars so they both go to the rear.
 
Historically once you show a lap car your nose they are fair game. The call was wrong for both the racers and the fans which is exactly what Billy Faust said in an admirably diplomatic way. I didn't care who won, but I wanted to see the finish and the best car/driver win. Officials should never legislate the grey areas. That accident wouldn't have happened with two lead lap cars, because the speed difference wouldn't have been there....

In tmes past this wasn't a huge problem. The drivers handled it themselves. Ask Sammy Swindell what happened everytime he crashed Kinser etc. Or watch some tape of the crash with Elliot that cooled the "Intimidator" off for several years.
 
laynejw said:
Also historically only stopping is cause for going to the back.
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All you get with that logic is cars gasing on through the crash to avoid being put to the back.

As long as I can remember it has been "anyone involved in the stopping of a race goes to the rear." Intentional rough driving goes to the infield.
Brian did not intentionaly take Kiefer out, he was expecting him to hold his line. But either way with out contact there would have been no yellow.
 
I agree with the call even though I didn't like it....

Been There said:
All you get with that logic is cars gasing on through the crash to avoid being put to the back.

As long as I can remember it has been "anyone involved in the stopping of a race goes to the rear." Intentional rough driving goes to the infield.
Brian did not intentionaly take Kiefer out, he was expecting him to hold his line. But either way with out contact there would have been no yellow.
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The race was great. I didn't like the call either, would have like to see it go to the end, but the officals got involved in the call because of what SHIRLEY did. He had the option to slow behind the lapped car and take 2nd which was where he was probably going to finish anyway ... or NOT slow, hit the lap car and hope the officals didn't make the call. The officals would NEVER have to make a call if not for the actions by the DRIVERS. All races would go green to checker and the scorers would determine the winner etc.

I, too, looked at the website ... they followed their rules that is all you can ask. Every track has their way of making calls as long as they are consistent, I don't have a problem with it. Just want to see the same call made the next time it happens (and it will). Like Been There said, the officals didn't think it was intentional or Shirley would have been blackflagged and he is right.

You can find this on pg 3 on their website under "rules"

Jimmy's comment about lapped cars deserve the same respect as any other car is RIGHT ON. If Shirley had moved up and spun Faust, I think everyone would agree Shirley should have been put to the back if Faust was.

JMO

YELLOW FLAGS
1 -If you bring out the Yellow Flag you will go to the tail. If you are involved in the Yellow you will go to the tail. If you make contact in an accident and stop on the track you will go to the tail. If you spin, stop or are involved in accident on the 1st lap of any race you will go to the tail. You will not get your original starting position back, NO EXCEPTIONS!
2 – Stopping without making contact to avoid an accident, you will be given your position back.
3 – Any car causing an INTENTIONAL YELLOW will be Black Flagged for that race.

ROUGH DRIVING
1 - If you make contact with another car with that car spinning out, you will go to the tail along with the car that was spun out. NO EXCEPTIONS!
2 – If you intentionally spin another car out you will be BLACK FLAGGED for that race.
 
turn4crew25 said:
someone please tell me what is a staging violation and why did they screw Rodney Melvin?
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When they call for you in staging you have a certain amount of time to get in line. If you are not there by that time you get penalized and go to the tail of your race, no matter who you are.
 
1 -If you bring out the Yellow Flag you will go to the tail. If you are involved in the Yellow you will go to the tail. If you make contact in an accident and stop on the track you will go to the tail. If you spin, stop or are involved in accident on the 1st lap of any race you will go to the tail. You will not get
your original starting position back, NO EXCEPTIONS!
2 – Stopping without making contact to avoid an accident, you will be given your position back.
3 – Any car causing an INTENTIONAL YELLOW will be Black Flagged for that race.

The "involved" comment is a grey area judgement call which will be applied inconsitently (they always are) and shouldn't be there. Rules can't be applied fairly unless they are concrete. I do like these rules better than some others. If you get spun out you should go to the back as well, because what happens if the leader spins out right in front of a car and they touch (which I have seen at I-55 and about 40 other tracks). It is his fault and he might get his spot back if the official sees it incorrectly. I went all over the midwest throughout the 90s and my family has raced everywhere since the 60s and very few tracks had any grey rules for yellow flag procedures (My grandpa caused the two spin rule in KC by telling his driver to spin out if he didn't pass enough cars on the first lap because they inverted heats on qualifying time). They started popping up in KC about the same time as starting cones in the mid to late 90s and I've never felt they were more fair than the old system. They are applied incorrectly too often.

I also like section 2 and 3 btw. I wish all tracks followed those procedures.
 
This rule makes their decision pretty cut and dry though:

1 - If you make contact with another car with that car spinning out, you will go to the tail along with the car that was spun out. NO EXCEPTIONS!
 
Us "regulars" at TC were not suprised at the call, but some folks around us were "complaining loudly" ... I wanted to tell them why, but they were "feeling their oats" and I didn't want a confrontation.

The real problem is every track does things differently. Don't assume the rules are the same from track to track.

BTW every rule has a "grey" area based on how you read it ... even lawyers can't write something that I would call "concrete". You'll never get away from judgement calls when you have 20-24 cars on a small track with one official watching an area. He will NOT see everything or will only see part of the "confrontation" and has to make a call. Would not want their job ...
 
"Involved" isn't the sort of word a lawyer would use unless they were trying to be vague. It is poor wording any way you look at it. It is a built-in intentional "grey" area.
 
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