461's compared to dart heads....give me your opinions please.....

S

smaldirt28

Well-Known Member
Ok i have heard everything so i wanna know some more. As alot of you may know we are able to go to a dart head this year in the sportsman class with allied at belleville and pevely. We have to stay with the 64cc chamber and it can only be a 11 to 1 compression motor. So natural we can't run a hogged out set of dart heads. If we still want to run the 461's we can put the 2.02/1.60 valves in them and weigh 3000lbs. Or we can run the dart heads with the same valves and weigh 3150lbs. Is 150lb weight differance fair? Would the 461's still be able to run with the dart heads with these weight differances? I have heard that the 461's will be better for belleville because it will make more torque than the dart because the track is so small and you don't get the full use of the 200cc runner or more in the dart heads. Then i have heard that since pevely is bigger that the darts will smoke the 461's since you can make use of the bigger runners in the dart heads. What do you all think? Please let me know. I am still to have the new motor done for this year and want to know what i should do as far as heads. Is the weight going to make up the difference in the performance? Any help here would be great. I am going to be running belleville and pevely both full time this year and i want to make sure that i will not be out motored by anyone because of the head issue. So please help me make my decision here. I know the darts are stronger and machined alot better but i am looking for the performance side of the two heads. Thank you all for reading this novel and please give me all helpful advice. Thank you all in advance.

Tom
 
If you're gonna run Belleville primarily and pop into I55 occasionally and have a good set of 461's that don't need a lot of money sunk into them. I'd run the 461's and take the weight break. It won't make that big a difference at Belleville. At I55 it would put you at a disadvantage somewhat. How much??? But, the weight break will help you. But, if you don't already have good 461's, or you're gonna run I55 often, I'd go with the Darts. They're an all around better piece. They would also help you if you go to any other STL area tracks. But, the best advice I can give, is to go with what best fits your budget-finances!
 
Like i said i am planning on racing pevely too every week not just Belleville. I don't want to be at a disadvantage at either track i go to but it seems like there will be a disadvantage to where ever you go. We all complained about them not changing the rules to allow dart heads and now that they did it doesn't seem to be a fair rule.

I hear that belleville torque would be better than the horses. So going with the 461's would make more torque than the darts at belleville due to the size of the runners. But then pevely you can actually open up your motor and make use of the runners in a dart head that would produce more power than the 461 heads.

Another thing that i didn't think of was the intake. Since we are restricted on the intake and can not run anything like a victor jr. etc. would that be a helping hand to the 461's? Since the dart head won't get the full use with the intakes we are allowed then does that bring them back down to the 461's playing field? It may all be personal preferences but the has to be a logical performance advantage or disavantage to these heads.

Please keep the post coming. I am learning a little more day by day and getting alittle more confused as to what to do day by day. I wish there was just a simple answer to it but unfortunately it doesn't seem like there is. Thank you all and let's here some more about this topic.

Tom
 
Well i just got off the phone with a really well know engine builder and got this from him.....

Since we have to run the intakes that we do and are restricted to a 11 to 1 compression ratio, that the 461's that are done up really nicely (professionally) would NOT be at a disadvantage with a 150lb weight difference. The guy seemed well educated and knew what he was talking about. He said that if he would be put in that position that he would save the money on the dart heads and lose the 150lb and run the 461's. From the way that he made it sound the dart heads would not be getting used to there max. and would serve no real purpose other than being a stronger head. ( and about 20 lbs heavier.....lol....).

Please feel free to still comment on this because i am curious as to what others have to say about it. I am also doing this to help out others that may be in question about it because when you hear 461's or darts you automatically think darts. But once you put into perspective what we are restricted to then it bring the heads back down closer to each other. So mainly from the way it is sounding right now those that have the 461's don't worry about it because you should be fine as long as the heads are done up right. Thank you all again.

Tom
 
what type of intakes do you have to run??
and if you only plan on racing at I55 a few nights do you need to register a number?? thanks
 
GM motors: Holley/Weiand: 7546, 7547, 7547-1

Edelbrock: 5001, 5056

Ford: Holley/Weiand: 7515, 7516, 8011

Edelbrock: 5021, 5081


Yeah if you are only going to be running pevely a few times no need to really register a number. But if you show up and a regular has the number you run they will just ask you to put a "1" in front or behind the number.

Tom
 
You might check with Paul Bauman ( sp ) he seems to do spectaular at both tracks. Also remember it's not all in the motor .... Add gears and tires now there is more to the equation to make you even more confused... :D Hope to see more of you at I-55.
 
That's true..the 461's and 462's are good flowing heads. The darts..are a strong..little heavier head..but they are race ready out of the box. The gm head needs hardened seats...usually new guides....drill for screw in studs..ect..if you are doing this from scratch. Goto a machine shop and that alone will get you in the 500-600 dollar range and they are still not as strong as the darts. But on a small tracks...you cant really see a big difference in these 2 kinds of heads..if you had a gripping track..like peavely on a good night..or tri city..thats where the advantage of the darts come in. Not knocking the gm heads..we"ve ran them for years..and loved them. If i didnt have a set of heads...and had to chose..whether doing a set of bare 461's..or going to Darts..which are available everywhere..id go the Dart route. But..since you've got a set..already..go with that.
 
start with the 461's and if you are getting blown away at i-55 then buy a set of dart heads and let er fly... after all i think the difference at belleville would not ba as great than that of pevely... i think you would make up for it at belleville due to your driving skills and set-up. but pevely is a horse power track! jmo
 
you will not get plum blown away by a set of dart heads..we ran 461 heads for years and beat many dart,world product headed engines..the 461's when done right are a very good head and flow really well,sometimes flow with a dart out of the box when good portwork is done..also with the intakes you have to run the 461's will work great,like i said a set of darts is not just gonna walk all over a good set of 461's..the dart is a better head,but for a factory casting the 461's are great and will give a dart a run for their money all day long..one thing to remember is you can put all the best parts in a motor and still only have a descent motor....when you take good stuff and match it all together(heads,cam,timing,carb,balancing,degreeing,compression)that is when you have a really good motor..good luck!!!
 
It really ****s that you cant run a Vortec head They are superior to both considering the restrictions.
 
i just ment that if he wasn't happy with the 461's after he ran a few nights with them then spend the money on a set of darts... after all everyone will have an opinion.. sometimes you have to experience things to see what the difference is for yourself...
 
Thank you all for the replies.....I am thinking that i will be giving the 461's a shot to start the year. I don't have any issue with running the 461's at belleville but i do have thoughts about pevely. If pevely continues to get black in the feature and all then i think i will be just fine with the 461's. I guess we will find out March 26th then.....Only a little over a month :D :D . Guess i should get the new motor built then....lol.

Tom
 
dirtgirl said:
You might check with Paul Bauman ( sp ) he seems to do spectaular at both tracks. Also remember it's not all in the motor .... Add gears and tires now there is more to the equation to make you even more confused... :D Hope to see more of you at I-55.
Click to expand...
and the nut behind the wheel :D :D
 
Tom -

As of right now, Paul is planning to start with the 461's and see how that goes. He wieghed out the pros & cons with his "motor man" and they think he'll be fine with that. So, we'll see how it goes. If you have any questions, though, feel free to give him a call.

Mandy
 
This Is Exactly What Allied Wanted With This Rule Change. They Weren't Trying To Force Anyone To Have To Change. Just Wanted To Give The Option. If They Would Have Just Said Any Cast Iron Head And Any Aluminum Intake, Well That Would Have Forced The Racers Hand. But, With Their Compression And Intake Rules, They Haven't Put The Stock Heads Outta The Ball Park.
 
Mandy

Sure is nice that Paul is such a great guy and you are so sweet to answer these questions you know when you are the champ everyone is gunning for you especially since he has been champ two years in a row. But as I say most of us have no secrets from each other that is why Belleville Sportsmans have such a great bunch of drivers and pit crews.

Al
 
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