The Great Debate? Is It Illegal or Is It Legal? You Make The Call

jdearing

jdearing

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This is floating around several messages boards, I just copied the info here to see everyone's opinion!

By Junior

Drivers always look to gain an advantage. It's in their blood. They must go faster.

Some drivers will accomplish this feat in either 1 of 2 ways, illegally or legally. Recently a matter has been brought up and the question has been thrown down, is it legal or not?

What are we talking about? In the past couple of years it seems that some chassis builders have figured out the raising the right side frame rail will help the car gain forward bite. They can have a much lighter right front spring. Having a raised frame rail allows you to put the power to the ground faster and it allows for more of that power to be transferred. Forward bite or at least that is the contention.

One driver that has this done on his modified told me that it allows you to corner better and pick up the throttle quicker. This driver asked to remain anonymous.

Another driver told me it was done as a safety measure for people in the stands. The driver said that keeping the right front from digging in to the track surface would eliminate mud being thrown into the crowd.

I don't, and wont claim to, know exactly all the advantages of doing this, but more over I am wanting to ask the question, is this modification legal or illegal?

Below is a diagram on what is being done to these frames to raise the right side up. It's a crude drawing, but it gives you an idea of what we are talking about. The frame rail is cut and raised on the right side. This can be done by just a straight cut and moving the rail up or it can be done by cutting a (pie) out on the frame rail and roll it up to fit. These are just two ways to make the frame rail raise up to as much as 4 inches. In the diagram below, the red marks show the general area where the cuts are made and then raised up.


When reading most tracks or sanction rules, drivers usually will come across a statement like this,

"Any other alterations or modifications not specifically allowed for in these rules will be considered illegal."
 

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While in Malden this past Saturday, one modified was actually making this alteration at the track.

Proceeded to lead several laps in the feature as well. Although he didn't win.
 
I noticed this on a mod at belleville 2 years ago. I thought "is this front end bent"? But then i noticed it on others too. Same chassis builder though. Never knew the reasoning though. kinda interesting. Good question though on being legal or not. Lots of different opinions i'm sure.
 
The guy that won at Malden Sat. night, his frame rail was done like that. I was told it was a GRT. He was fast no doubt about that. What i liked better than the right frame rail was a biscuit bar running from the lower 4 bar mount forward to the frame on the right side. The body was sprung up on the right side due to ruts or rubbing, it was visible. His crew guy was quick to pull the body back down over it in the scale area. It was cool looking.
 
There is a thread about the crate motors and how to keep them what they were promised ... this ties in perfectly with this ... UMP was "suppose" to be affordable for the "little guy" well so much for Memmer's "dream".

I first blame the racer, but the ULTIMATE blame goes on UMP. This was "debated" in Florida and UMP turned a blind eye.

Everyone has "praised" the NASCAR guys for getting involved with dirt racing, but it is those same folks who are ruining the sport .... putting NASCAR motors in Late Models and Modifieds, putting them in an air tunnel and extending the nose pieces and altering the original body design to gain an areodynamic advantage, it is also those folks (Landers and Dillon's backing with Martin and Childress) that have found another way to make the cars fasters by modifiying the frames.

If it is NOT in the rule, it is illegal ... but Sam and all the UMP officials will NEVER rule against the folks who are putting food in their mouth.

Sorry ... if it is NOT stopped when it STARTS where will it end?

Here is a quote that I find applies to both classes ....

http://www.stlracing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126541
because the promises of an organization turn lazy because of the effort needed to keep it cheap and even.

SO TRUE ...

 
Impressive cars were the first ones I noticed with the nose extended further down.

The frame deal has been happening the past couple of years. I think it just started getting noticed at the start of this year. UMP is trying to decide what to do about it. Completely eliminating this may obsolete a lot of cars.

This isn't just a UMP problem, this is happening in IMCA, USMTS and many unsanctioned tracks.

I do believe Landers & Dillon's were running Mullins Engines in Florida.
 
By Troy Harrison

Well, if you're looking for controversy, the A-Modified class in this area is a good place to find it. For those who need to be caught up to speed (perhaps you've been vacationing in sunny Yemen for the last few weeks), Inthepits.net broke a story about how some Modified builders were raising the right front frame rail (the stock clip section, approximately 3 to 3-1/2") on their cars. Apparently, this all stemmed from a loose lipped racer at a racing banquet who didn't realize that he was speaking with an inspector present. A little checking by the inspector followed, and sure enough, a lot of the fast cars at his track were running this setup.

Now, just to clarify something - this setup is illegal. It's illegal as hell. The frame rules for nearly every Modified track are cribbed from IMCA or UMP's rules in some form, and each set of rules says exactly where and how the OEM frame rails can be cut. You can't raise the right side rail without cutting the frame where it kicks up for the front stub. Enough said. It's illegal. The question is whether the tracks will, or should, enforce the rule.

The reason that builders have started doing this modification is that the higher right rail allows the car to roll farther and quicker onto the right front, which indexes the left rear birdcage, which allows greater traction coming off the corner. Since the modern 4-link car hooks up based on physical leverage, a greater angle of indexing is a significant advantage, and might explain why certain builders' cars have become THE cars to have over the past couple of years. It's been done on dirt late models for quite a while - but dirt late models are already fully fabricated cars.

The offended (illegal) racers who now are staring disqualification in the eye are running the normal playbook. For those who don't know, there is a defined sequence of claims and comments that happen whenever racers want to make something legal that was previously illegal. Whether it's beadlocks, quick changes, roller cams, dry sumps, or yes, raised right side frame rails, the playbook is the same. For the sake of clarity, let's just call the item the New Trick Part, or NTP for short.

Play 1: Call the NTP a safety or reliability improvement. Yep, they're doing this. See, unbeknownst to us, race fans are in tremendous peril from flying dirt clods that happen when the right front rails of non-raised cars dig into the track. Nevermind, of course, that the section that isn't raised is actually rounded in such a way that flinging said clods over the fence with sufficient force to injure a fan is difficult to say the least. By God, according to these guys, not only should the modification be legal - the 20,000 or so Modifieds that aren't raised should be done so immediately. Do it for the fans. Hell, do it for the children. It's only right.

Play 2: Since it only takes a second or two for anyone with a brain to spot Play 1 as BS, you've got to go to the second play. The second play is to claim that it's really not a performance advantage; it's just personal preference as to how some guys want to build their cars. Of course, it's also coincidence that the cars that have this modification are faster and behave differently on the racetrack. Here's the bottom line - chassis builders are in business to make money. One of the builders that does this can't even come up with a cage that won't collapse on a guy. Do you really think that he (and the others) would go to all the work to cut 3 inches out of the frame, splice it back together, weld it, then grind and dress the weld so it looks like it wasn't cut at all (because of course THEY know it's illegal) - if there were no advantage? Fact is that this is a significant advantage and allowing it nearly forces everyone else to spend the money to do so on their own cars.

Play 3: Claim it's not an extra expense. Usually, the racers do this by comparing the NTP to the ultimate version of the old legal parts, using all variations, with a 2 year supply. In this case, even proponents can't claim this for long, since labor = money, and this modification = labor.

Play 4: Get personal. Insult legal racers by saying "Well, this NTP isn't the reason you're getting beat, anyway." Sometimes, this works - racers tend to take things personally, and they'll vote to allow NTP out of basic honor.

Play 5: Claim it's impossible to tech. This was the primary argument behind traction control, for instance, and I've even seen one racer using it here. Get real. This one is so easy to tech that you could have Stevie Wonder as your tech man, and he'd spot the raised rails.

We've seen all five plays run in this instance with varying results. Some tracks (Thunderhill, Heartland Park, IMCA tracks, a few others) say they are ready to send racers home who show up with illegal frames. Others (Lakeside) are employing all the spine of a wounded jellyfish, and saying that "they'll decide when they have cars to tech." In other words, they need to figure out who is illegal before they send anyone home.

Bottom line - more traction = more horsepower that can be hooked up. That means it takes more motor to win. In a class where $20,000 engines are becoming the norm, that's nuts. Modifieds were designed to be an everyman's race car; an alternative to expensive late models. Well, guess what? 20 years later, late model fans have been run off from Modified-only tracks, and the Modified guys want to make their cars into late models without the fan appeal.

In the interest of full disclosure, I will point out that I do have a dog in the fight. I sponsor a Modified at Thunder Hill, and it's legal - no raised rail. The guy who runs it is a low-dollar driver, exactly the kind of driver that the Modifieds were supposed to be for.

It's time for Modified promoters to grow a set and start protecting these guys from themselves; more importantly, to start protecting the integrity of the Modified class. This whole process starts down the slippery slope toward fully fabricated cars - which will obsolete about 20,000 race cars that are currently running (not to mention increase the cost of the front end pieces). What happens when the smoke clears is anyone's guess. But I'll put my money on the associations and the promoters who decide to keep the Modified class close to its purpose.
 
The way I see it, the modification is done to the frame, but it is not an addition to the frame, or an electronic control. It also appears to be an easy modification, with very little cost involved. I say allow it, but put in the rules a maximum dimension for the move.
 
I'm looking for some clairification why are they cutting both sides of the fram to raise the right side like shown in the drawing unless if they are lowering the left side inorder to hold the wedge in the car and transfer that weight to the right rear? Also I guess this is being done on the sportsmans and no one notices that because of the full bodies or is this simply for a four bar setup but if you think about it simply letting the car roll over quicker makes the car set quicker there for allowing you to drive off straight during slick conditions? And in my opinion this is not I'll ilegal if you own a torch, welder and a brain any backwoods boy who understands this can do this In a night at the garage. If I'm wrong on how this works please let me know but these are just my opinions but my bet is this is much to wide spred for anyone to do anything about it my guess this is just as prominent in the sportsman class
 
bigdirtracingfan said:
By Troy Harrison

Well, if you're looking for controversy, the A-Modified class in this area is a good place to find it. For those who need to be caught up to speed (perhaps you've been vacationing in sunny Yemen for the last few weeks), Inthepits.net broke a story about how some Modified builders were raising the right front frame rail (the stock clip section, approximately 3 to 3-1/2") on their cars. Apparently, this all stemmed from a loose lipped racer at a racing banquet who didn't realize that he was speaking with an inspector present. A little checking by the inspector followed, and sure enough, a lot of the fast cars at his track were running this setup.

Now, just to clarify something - this setup is illegal. It's illegal as hell. The frame rules for nearly every Modified track are cribbed from IMCA or UMP's rules in some form, and each set of rules says exactly where and how the OEM frame rails can be cut. You can't raise the right side rail without cutting the frame where it kicks up for the front stub. Enough said. It's illegal. The question is whether the tracks will, or should, enforce the rule.

The reason that builders have started doing this modification is that the higher right rail allows the car to roll farther and quicker onto the right front, which indexes the left rear birdcage, which allows greater traction coming off the corner. Since the modern 4-link car hooks up based on physical leverage, a greater angle of indexing is a significant advantage, and might explain why certain builders' cars have become THE cars to have over the past couple of years. It's been done on dirt late models for quite a while - but dirt late models are already fully fabricated cars.

The offended (illegal) racers who now are staring disqualification in the eye are running the normal playbook. For those who don't know, there is a defined sequence of claims and comments that happen whenever racers want to make something legal that was previously illegal. Whether it's beadlocks, quick changes, roller cams, dry sumps, or yes, raised right side frame rails, the playbook is the same. For the sake of clarity, let's just call the item the New Trick Part, or NTP for short.

Play 1: Call the NTP a safety or reliability improvement. Yep, they're doing this. See, unbeknownst to us, race fans are in tremendous peril from flying dirt clods that happen when the right front rails of non-raised cars dig into the track. Nevermind, of course, that the section that isn't raised is actually rounded in such a way that flinging said clods over the fence with sufficient force to injure a fan is difficult to say the least. By God, according to these guys, not only should the modification be legal - the 20,000 or so Modifieds that aren't raised should be done so immediately. Do it for the fans. Hell, do it for the children. It's only right.

Play 2: Since it only takes a second or two for anyone with a brain to spot Play 1 as BS, you've got to go to the second play. The second play is to claim that it's really not a performance advantage; it's just personal preference as to how some guys want to build their cars. Of course, it's also coincidence that the cars that have this modification are faster and behave differently on the racetrack. Here's the bottom line - chassis builders are in business to make money. One of the builders that does this can't even come up with a cage that won't collapse on a guy. Do you really think that he (and the others) would go to all the work to cut 3 inches out of the frame, splice it back together, weld it, then grind and dress the weld so it looks like it wasn't cut at all (because of course THEY know it's illegal) - if there were no advantage? Fact is that this is a significant advantage and allowing it nearly forces everyone else to spend the money to do so on their own cars.

Play 3: Claim it's not an extra expense. Usually, the racers do this by comparing the NTP to the ultimate version of the old legal parts, using all variations, with a 2 year supply. In this case, even proponents can't claim this for long, since labor = money, and this modification = labor.

Play 4: Get personal. Insult legal racers by saying "Well, this NTP isn't the reason you're getting beat, anyway." Sometimes, this works - racers tend to take things personally, and they'll vote to allow NTP out of basic honor.

Play 5: Claim it's impossible to tech. This was the primary argument behind traction control, for instance, and I've even seen one racer using it here. Get real. This one is so easy to tech that you could have Stevie Wonder as your tech man, and he'd spot the raised rails.

We've seen all five plays run in this instance with varying results. Some tracks (Thunderhill, Heartland Park, IMCA tracks, a few others) say they are ready to send racers home who show up with illegal frames. Others (Lakeside) are employing all the spine of a wounded jellyfish, and saying that "they'll decide when they have cars to tech." In other words, they need to figure out who is illegal before they send anyone home.

Bottom line - more traction = more horsepower that can be hooked up. That means it takes more motor to win. In a class where $20,000 engines are becoming the norm, that's nuts. Modifieds were designed to be an everyman's race car; an alternative to expensive late models. Well, guess what? 20 years later, late model fans have been run off from Modified-only tracks, and the Modified guys want to make their cars into late models without the fan appeal.

In the interest of full disclosure, I will point out that I do have a dog in the fight. I sponsor a Modified at Thunder Hill, and it's legal - no raised rail. The guy who runs it is a low-dollar driver, exactly the kind of driver that the Modifieds were supposed to be for.

It's time for Modified promoters to grow a set and start protecting these guys from themselves; more importantly, to start protecting the integrity of the Modified class. This whole process starts down the slippery slope toward fully fabricated cars - which will obsolete about 20,000 race cars that are currently running (not to mention increase the cost of the front end pieces). What happens when the smoke clears is anyone's guess. But I'll put my money on the associations and the promoters who decide to keep the Modified class close to its purpose.
Click to expand...

Dude !!!!!! your my hero, I dropped outa Mods a long time ago for the very reasons you just stated !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
per UMP rules section 5.1. Factory production full 1950 or newer parallel American passenger car frames only. Frames must be complete in front of firewall. No cutting of frame in any way in front of firewall!
It is ILLEGAL
 
Play 1: Call the NTP a safety or reliability improvement. Yep, they're doing this. See, unbeknownst to us, race fans are in tremendous peril from flying dirt clods that happen when the right front rails of non-raised cars dig into the track. Nevermind, of course, that the section that isn't raised is actually rounded in such a way that flinging said clods over the fence with sufficient force to injure a fan is difficult to say the least. By God, according to these guys, not only should the modification be legal - the 20,000 or so Modifieds that aren't raised should be done so immediately. Do it for the fans. Hell, do it for the children. It's only right.

I've personally seen cars at I-55 throwing mud with said frame rail.

My opinion is that it should be legal. Not an expensive mod, doesn't alter the position of the suspension pickup points and the right rail is a dummy rail on most cars anyway. If it just gonna hang there and not really have any function in the integrity or function of the chassis, why not raise it up enough to keep it out of the track?

If a hard hit in that spot bent the rail up would anyone really care? Probably not, right now. What happens if it's deemed illegal? Would a car that was bent in such way during the heats have to be repaired prior to the main?? Just food for thought...
 
By that same opinion, if there isn't any advantage and that rail is just hanging there......Then why do it at all...hhhhmmmmm yep think about it, ...... i see a light up there.. There is an advantage or it would not be such a problem and if a builder is doing it then that is proof enough to believe that is does something... Interesting though, is there a safety concern by cutting the frame if someone is not sure what they are doing and just trying to stay up to speed. How bad do you think a broken frame rail digging into the track will make a car flip??? I say make it illegal or should i say keep it illegal!!!
 
raised right rail

If your going to move it... why not cut it off. It's just a dummy right, or do we still call a car without a stock frame a Late model? :confused:
That said...I'll be trying it on my car.:cool:
 
my point of view is that until an inspector cites it as illegal,it isnt.
when one does,the rest should follow suit and make it blanket illegal.
just need one to pull the trigger on it. till then , its legal,get caught with it after,your dirty.
and i love the saftey angle,must be a lawyer,or sponsered by one.
 
I saw a photo of a "illegal frame gauge" yesterday on the internet somewhere,. It lays on the side of the frame rail and you can tell immediately if it has been "jimmied"....But most of us can tell that without a gauge.,,,One thing,,if it is in the rule book as illegal,then it must be illegal.
 
moonflow said:
The way I see it, the modification is done to the frame, but it is not an addition to the frame, or an electronic control. It also appears to be an easy modification, with very little cost involved. I say allow it, but put in the rules a maximum dimension for the move.
Click to expand...

If you have to "allow it" to the rules then it must be illegal, until it is added, if it ever is.


JMO
jumpinjackdw
 
ExtremeRaceCars said:
per UMP rules section 5.1. Factory production full 1950 or newer parallel American passenger car frames only. Frames must be complete in front of firewall. No cutting of frame in any way in front of firewall!
It is ILLEGAL
Click to expand...

UMP rulebook also says "full" frame. And doesn't specify where it can be cut off in the rear...;)

I feel that this being deemed illegal is like ripping the guts out of what modified racing has historically been...

Twisting the frame is nowhere near ultra lightweight components or quickchange rearends in terms of cost. Nowhere close to traction control devices in terms of unfair technology and is something that anyone skilled with torch/plasma cutter and a welder could do dirt cheap...

Just an outsiders opinion, take it or leave it.
 
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