Idea for local classes

faustfan2

faustfan2

Active Member
Jimmy posted a comment in another thread that got me to thinking. He said he talked to a well known promoter that said the problem is to many classes. Ok so heres my thought....Take the late models make them run steel block motors again as they did in the early 90's and if they dont want to do that and want to run the aluminum motors well theres a couple series out there that they can run. Let the crates still run the 604 crate or the bigger motor that Moonman is running and combine those two classes to make one. The modifieds go back to the steel head motor pretty much what the b-mods are now. Make them run a 9" either floater or non either way doesnt matter but has to be the 9". Can be three link. The a-mod motors they run now could be sold to the guys in the late model class and would be darn good motors. So then you combine the a-mod and b-mod classes to make one. The sportsman and street stocks combine them to. Let the street stocks put in weight jacks and if choose to go with the fabricated floor pans let them go to a aluminum intake and holley 4412 carb and leave the motors alone and make the sportsman go to four link and run the same motor rules the street stocks have and they can sell their motors to the mod guys. The pro-4's just leave them alone they are fine where they are. If the guys in the late models and a-mods dont want to do this the as i said before there is a couple touring series out there they can go run with. You have now eliminated the 5/6 classes you have now down to 4/5 plus now your car counts have went up and possibly more butts in the stands. Now the guys who havent been so competive can be on the same playing field as everybody in their class. Lets face it most of the local guys are struggling now to get by with what they have just to be competitive. With this idea they are saving more money. As we all know times are tuff right now for everybody and to me this may be a simple solution in the racing community to make it more affordable and who knows since it will be cheaper to build a car just maybe more people would want to be more involved. Just a thought. Lets keep it clean and no arguing. Lets hear some ideas.
 
It actually is no cheaper really to build a steel block engine verse a aluminum. Actually you can do more to a steel block. Not seeing logic there!! Harrison's mod engine was copy of kortes last year or year before from dargie( or close). Same power. The 525 vs 604 isn't even close so that probably wouldn't work either. I agree something needs to be done. Just my point of view. Good to see someone thinking about it though!
 
I like everything about your post Faustfan, and wish it was that way. That's basically the way it was " pre-bomber"
Unfortunately since most tracks are under the UMP umbrella/choke hold, I don't see it happening, unless a group of tracks come together and make a stand.
 
Well it just got me to thinking and with Belle-Clair closing i just really hate to see a sport that we all love so much just disappear because of the might green dollar even though i know Belle-Clair didnt close because of the money invested in the cars it still got me to thinking. I remeber back in the late 80's early 90's with only three classes running at Highland it seemed there was alot more cars then and a ton more fans in the stands. But as Adam posted it probably wont happen do to the "bigger organizations" but its something i think that should be giving alot off thought from the promotors to the drivers and owners and fans.
 
We have been having a similar discussion the past few days on our facebook page, pretty much just bench racing trying to see if there's anything to making a sort of Limited Late Model class on our small track where you could run anything from a 602 crate to an all steel motor, to a modified motor, to a 430 all aluminum and everyone have a fair shot at it. It would be tough and take a lot of tech, but I found a set of rules from I-80 in Nebraska and a track in Iowa that are doing something along those lines. Don't know if it would work. The complete rules are here: http://i-80speedway.com/i80/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2013-NSLM-Rules1.pdf It's kind of a "run what ya got and can afford" concept and they handicap through restrictor plate, weight and spoiler. This way a guy could run the Limited class one night, take off the restrictor and run a good paying Super show the next, while the crate guy could have a chance with the Limiteds, then go off crate racing the next night somewhere without spending a bunch on different motors etc. Not sure if it would work, but it's an interesting concept...

Here's a brief excerpt from the engine rules:
1. 602, 604 GM crate Motors, no minimum weight with upto a 12” spoiler
2. Complete IMCA Spec Motor Rule including intake spacer 2325 lbs
3.Complete IMCA package including Super Chain Link Hoosier Race tire 2275 lbs. up to a 10”spoiler.
4.WIssota Spec Motor must weigh 2350 lbs with a 1.250 restrictor and not allowed to run alcohol.
5. 364 or smaller engines with compression ratio 11 to 1 or less must weigh 2275 lbs (high–comp2350)
6.GM Motors Under 364 cu in motor with standard valve angle steel or aluminum heads must weigh 2325 lbs with a 1.100 restrictor.
7. GM ct525 minimum weigh 2300 lbs with up to a 8” spoiler No weight required in front of engine plate.
8. Open/unrestricted aluminum or steel motors 365 cubic inch or less motors must weigh 2350 lbs with a 1.050 restrictor.
9. Open/unrestricted aluminum or steel All motors 366–400 cubic inch must weight 2350 lbs. with a 1.000 restrictor.
10.Open/unrestricted Aluminum or steel motors 401 cubic inches and larger must weigh 2350 lbs.With a .950 restrictor
 
Racing IS too expensive, but any rule change is going to cost racers money. But you know what? Changes NEED to be made.

Late models....a good place to start would be to go to a spec head engine. IMCA, WISSOTA, WDLMA, SUPR all run them. UMP should too! They should go to a D55 tire as well. The crates should run with the spec engines with a weight break. The open engines could be allowed for a time with a weight penalty but they need to phase them out. The problem with spec engines and crates is they need to be tech'd. Neither UMP or the promoters have the will to do thorough tech inspections.

Mods.....they are so far out of hand it's hard to know where to start. 10 years ago mods were like weeds...they were everywhere. Mod counts are down by a third or more. When will the powers that be wake up and face the fact that they've let things get out of control?

Sportsman & Street Stock...... pretty much all current sportsman and SS chassis would be legal. I'd allow mod chassis as well since used mod chassis are everywhere and cheap. I'd put them on leafs or coils, no bird cages, no pull bars. 602 crate engine and tech them! I'd also require them to have modern stock appearing bodies (even if the bodies were from FWD cars). We need a class besides the hornets that the new and casual fans can relate to what they see on the street.

Hornets......Keep the rules as restrictive as possible. $1200 claim on the whole car (minus the seat and belts).
 
To many engine types,to many engine rules if you want to keep it cheap and tech to a minimum just open the engine rules and choke them with 2 barrels
The cost of cars have gotten way out of hand with the biggest cost being with the engine, stop the high cost and you will see the classes grow
 
That was our original discussion. Basically crates and 2 barrels in one class because I think they are close on horsepower and could race each other without additional handicaps. Then we started talking about how to get guys with an aluminum headed modified engine, then an existing super engine all in the same race. The point of the above was to show that at a place like Nebraska where they have IMCA, Wissota, Open Supers and all kinds of other things in the area, that they can find a package that deals with them all. Around here it would be much simpler. But what you don't want is a guy having to own several engine combinations to race at different tracks because sooner or later he will choose one or the other. If a guy wants to own a Super to race in big races, but still wants to race weekly close to home at a track without a large number of supers in the area, it's possible to run a "catch all" class. Not saying that's the answer for us... but it's worth looking at. Most likely you would only need to even out a 604, an all steel motor, an aluminum head motor and an open motor. 4 types of motors wouldn't be that tough I don't think.
 
jax-webguy said:
We have been having a similar discussion the past few days on our facebook page, pretty much just bench racing trying to see if there's anything to making a sort of Limited Late Model class on our small track where you could run anything from a 602 crate to an all steel motor, to a modified motor, to a 430 all aluminum and everyone have a fair shot at it. It would be tough and take a lot of tech, but I found a set of rules from I-80 in Nebraska and a track in Iowa that are doing something along those lines. Don't know if it would work. The complete rules are here: http://i-80speedway.com/i80/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/2013-NSLM-Rules1.pdf It's kind of a "run what ya got and can afford" concept and they handicap through restrictor plate, weight and spoiler. This way a guy could run the Limited class one night, take off the restrictor and run a good paying Super show the next, while the crate guy could have a chance with the Limiteds, then go off crate racing the next night somewhere without spending a bunch on different motors etc. Not sure if it would work, but it's an interesting concept...

Here's a brief excerpt from the engine rules:
1. 602, 604 GM crate Motors, no minimum weight with upto a 12” spoiler
2. Complete IMCA Spec Motor Rule including intake spacer 2325 lbs
3.Complete IMCA package including Super Chain Link Hoosier Race tire 2275 lbs. up to a 10”spoiler.
4.WIssota Spec Motor must weigh 2350 lbs with a 1.250 restrictor and not allowed to run alcohol.
5. 364 or smaller engines with compression ratio 11 to 1 or less must weigh 2275 lbs (high–comp2350)
6.GM Motors Under 364 cu in motor with standard valve angle steel or aluminum heads must weigh 2325 lbs with a 1.100 restrictor.
7. GM ct525 minimum weigh 2300 lbs with up to a 8” spoiler No weight required in front of engine plate.
8. Open/unrestricted aluminum or steel motors 365 cubic inch or less motors must weigh 2350 lbs with a 1.050 restrictor.
9. Open/unrestricted aluminum or steel All motors 366–400 cubic inch must weight 2350 lbs. with a 1.000 restrictor.
10.Open/unrestricted Aluminum or steel motors 401 cubic inches and larger must weigh 2350 lbs.With a .950 restrictor
Click to expand...
I like the concept!
 
The point here is a kind of reasonable progression from the Street Stock through the Super Late Model without a crazy expenditure at any one step in the ladder ("crazy" is relative). Street stock racer starts to feel he's ready to move on... he sells the street stock roller and buys a used late model roller, keeps his steel street stock motor and starts racing a late model for a few thousand bucks. A few years pass and he's getting better and wants to race some big shows in an open motor - he sells his steel motor for an open motor as he already owns the roller and spares by then.

That's kind of the thinking in our 305 sprint class we started this year. Buy a cheap sprint car and cheap 305 motor. Learn to race while acquiring sprint car parts and spares and when you are ready to go 410 racing you sell your 305 motor for a 410. No single outlandish expenditure at any one step.

BTW... I like the simplicity of the WDLMA rules for different combinations Pops: http://wdlma.webs.com/rules.htm
 
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To many classes that is part of the problem. Now we have a track wanting to add another class plus letting them run different combinations and that usually never works. All that does is water down other classes. Remember back in the day 3 classes is what they ran. Another problem is the lack of teching to keep those that like to play with the so called gray area form getting out of hand. It has happened in the crate class as we speak. One thing that needs to be done if you want to cut cost is limit what shock they can run. Look at the crate class some are running shocks that are 600 to 700 hundred apiece. That's ridiculous. They are not running the right tire. They are doing so, much because no one is checking anything anymore. Most tracks are concerned about car counts and are afraid to run them off and who can blame them at this point. IMO we don't need another class. Put if that's your thing I wish you nothing but the best of luck.
 
We are a long way from doing anything Havoline. But this week in Central Illinois there were about 12 Supers at Farmer City, 11 at Quincy and 14 at Peoria all on different days of the week. Peoria also had 11 in a steel block class that night. Farmer City dropped the Sportsman class due to low car count and I would imagine (but don't know) that there are IMCA late models sitting in Iowa that could be brought into the Quincy show with the right rules package. What I'm talking about is consolidation.... not adding a new class. Let's get these cars racing against each other in one class for these local weekly shows instead of multiple classes of similar looking cars that half of the fans don't understand the difference between.

As a track that would like to run some kind of late model weekly in addition to our sprints and mods, I can't look at the above numbers and feel like there would be a good show. Nor are there healthy crate numbers up here, or sportsman for that matter. Get all those guys involved in a single class, and now we have something to run with.
 
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I bring up the b mod class as a example at highland..when they were first introduced I was dead set against them now I am 100% for them.the class has some high bux cars but for the most part the cars are still affordable..the mix includes crate motors with 4 barrels,high compression 350s and a few allied legal flat top 350s (that's what is in our b mod)no car seems to have a advantage,take sat night for example,a crate won,a high comp. 350 was second and 3d was a allied 350..AND THEY CHECKED THEM after the race.last year the car count was low but this year it is in the 20 count every night.i also have a a mod that until recently had a high bux 350,now it has a high comp.350 that was intended for the b mod but did have a 406 also that is a stock rod motor and would have been less reliable..i have less the $2000 in both motors..don't get me wrong,i have nothing against a crate motor,just cant afford one..at highland thgey do look at the b mod class closer than the other classes that's what keeps the compitition close..regarding the supers and a mods,,they go FAST and that is what the fan in the stands want SPEED..the SS seem to be on a par with one another but I don't know how often they check them...JMO
 
Hmm i would of thought controlling the amount of air that any motor could suck would be the cheapest way of equaling out the power an engine produces but guess I'm wrong...Lmao. But I am right about it being faster to pull a restrictor plate or even switch intake and carb then swopping an engine to compete in weekly -v- big shows

And Lenny there isn't anyway most fans can tell the difference if I had a Sportsman engine, Mod engine or a Crate engine in a car, Lap times isn't to far apart now look at Ripperda's lap times against the modified lap times and the Modified against the super lates....Just using Rip as an example because he is bad fast

I always wanted to see an all out battle between classes...Use the restrictor plate idea and have a battle of the classes lol
 
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Lenny your right The sportman engine package is what we shoud work off of or all calsses, go to three. Combine the Sportsman and pure stock class pure stock chassis most sportsman cars could be converted back move the engine back to stock location cast Iron intake and rochester carb. allow screw jacks stock 4 link.
Bmod 3 link allow only non rebuildable shocks welded steele body shocks. Nine inch or quick change same engine as pure stocks but allow the current intakes the sportsman and holley 500.
Latemodel no canister shocks same engine as the other 2 classes but open intake and 4barrel

a guy could change classes use the same long block only needing to change carb and intake and chassis The engines will live a long time the racing will be good and the cars will be more affordable.
 
Changing the rules in this area won't help anybody out. You have to keep them the same as a large area of the country runs so that the guys who want to travel once in awhile can - without changing a bunch of stuff. Like UMP is now. I think that tracks should run 4 classes - LM, Mod, Cratemodel, and Sportsman/Street Stock. JMO.....
And quickchanges should be allowed. WAY easier and cheaper in the long run if you race different tracks. And the Two Barrel Carb rule won't work. We had that one at a track I used to pit at in IN, we just ordered up a 750 two barrel and carried on.....
 
Silky... The 305 class has been everything we wanted it to be and it has a bright future ahead. We had 305's scheduled early and late in the season this year with specials taking up a lot of the middle, so we have only raced them twice so far because most of our early schedule got rained out. Last Friday was our first real 305 show where we would consider them a headliner. We had a terrible forecast all day and I personally know of 4 cars that were going to travel an hour or more that decided not to risk it. We ended up with 10 cars, which doesn't sound like much but all of those cars but one were local and didn't even exist last year. On most nights going forward, assuming good weather we should be in the 15 car range or better. 2 more local cars are in the process of getting built.

The best part of the whole experience Friday was that we had several fans there that had sort of been against the 305 concept. We had one fan earlier in the week ask us if we were racing "those street stock sprint cars Friday?" Once the cars were on the track putting on an exceptional race, the fans forgot all about engine specs etc. They were watching a great sprint car race and paid a lower ticket price to see it. At the end of the night, I'm confident that the 305's sold themselves as an entertaining and competitive class of racing to the fans and our old-time, hard core sprint car fans that was there learned to appreciate and enjoy them.

And the best part is that at least 9 of the 10 engines were purchased or built for around $6,000 or less, including the winner, high-schooler Steven Russell who got his first career sprint car win Friday.
 
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