The Great Debate? Is It Illegal or Is It Legal? You Make The Call

IMCA & USMTS have already stated that they will NOT allow this.
 
On the old drawings that UMP had of the bodies for the cars it stated that the factory frame could be cut off no father forward than 36" in front of the center line of the rear end housing. This information do not appear on there new drawing and is something they should clarify in the rules. I also believe that the "full" in full frame means that is from a full frame car and not the sub frame from a uni body car. Also why would you go to the trouble to do this when you could just set the right front ride height higher, these cars do have weight jacks.
 
AR20 said:
On the old drawings that UMP had of the bodies for the cars it stated that the factory frame could be cut off no father forward than 36" in front of the center line of the rear end housing. This information do not appear on there new drawing and is something they should clarify in the rules. I also believe that the "full" in full frame means that is from a full frame car and not the sub frame from a uni body car. Also why would you go to the trouble to do this when you could just set the right front ride height higher, these cars do have weight jacks.
Click to expand...

I agree, but it all comes down to interpretation...


Changing the ride height changes the geometry of the rf suspension...
 
If they start using the frame tech tool shown, theres a big expence for the tracks, a tool for each different stub.

The builders will start putting the stubs in the jig with the right side cocked up to begin with. Plus, how many cars out there have been whacked on the right side bending it? How many guys will pay to have a car re-stubbed just to fit the tech tool?

Simple, obviouse solution, cut a block of wood 5", 6" or whatever is determined as a minimum. If it slides under the right front corner on the scales, your illegal
 
per UMP rules section 5.1. Factory production full 1950 or newer parallel American passenger car frames only. Frames must be complete in front of firewall. No cutting of frame in any way in front of firewall!

is there a chassis in existence that didnt have the stub cut to fit the radiator?
 
As with all the other sanctions, the UMP Rules are pretty straight forward for both the FRAME and the BODY. The local tracks need to enforce the rules they way they are written, PERIOD!
5. FRAMES
5.1. Factory production full 1950 or newer parallel American passenger car frames only. Frames must be complete in front of firewall. No cutting of frame in any way in front of firewall!
5.2. Front cross member may be notched for radiator clearance only. Cross members must be plated to retain complete box configuration..
5.3. Jeep, Bronco, 4-wheel drive, front wheel drive or sports car frames are not allowed. .
5.4. Minimum wheelbase is 108” (one hundred and eight inches). Maximum wheelbase is 112” (one hundred and twelve inches).
5.5. Rear of frame may be altered to accept leaf or coil springs. Any coil spring must be at least 4 1/2” (four and one-half inches) outside diameter. (Any spring)
5.6. Fiberglass lift bars are not permitted. Rear torsion bars are not permitted.
5.7. Frames may not be widened or narrowed and must be able to support roll cage on both sides and must be full and complete on both sides. Minimum frame and body height from ground is 4” (four inches). Front bumper must be mounted to the ends of the frame with the bottom loop parallel to the ground. Minimum of 1” pipe is required to support the car when being towed. Rear bumpers must be constructed of pipe or flat stock and must protect the fuel cell. Center of bumpers (front and rear) must have 25 inches of ground clearance with a 2” (two inches) tolerance. Rear bumper, Nerf bars must not extend beyond width of rear tires and must not contain any sharp edges.
5.8. Brace bars forward of the cage may not be higher than stock hood height.
5.9. Rear push-bars may not extend beyond 6” (six inches) of rear quarter panel.
5.10. All side bars and bumpers must be capped on ends.
6. BODIES (see drawing diagram for reference)
6.1. Bodies must follow dimension and appearance as shown on diagram. Body shall be the fabricated modified body from approved vendors.
6.2. Front windshield and rear window support must be stock appearing. Front window support may have clear Lexan support of no more than 16” (sixteen inches) including the roof post at the bottom and going straight to top.
6.3. Front roof post must be in a straight line from top to bottom.
6.4. Engine compartment will remain open. Side panels are not permitted. Hood sides may have a maximum 5” (five inch) drop and must be enclosed at rear of hood. Firewall on driver’s side must meet front of door.
6.5. Side fins or lips of any kind are not permitted along the entire length of car or any panel (hood, front, nose, and roof).
6.6. Bodies should extend no further forward than the back of the block.
6.7. A maximum of one (1) stone deflector, for rear mounted oil pumps, oil filters, and for the main oil tank will be permitted. The deflector may be made of steel, aluminum, or heavy gauge wire. The cover may only be mounted near the unit it is designed to protect with a maximum size of eighteen inches square (18” x18”) and mounted only from the upper right frame rail to the lower right frame rail.
6.8. Minimum height to top of roof is 42” (forty-two inches) with a maximum height not exceeding 52” (fifty-two inches).
6.9. Minimum height to top of deck is 28” (twenty-eight inches) with a maximum height not exceeding 38” (thirty-eight inches).
6.10. All cars must have a car number on both sides and the roof that are at least 18” (eighteen inches).
6.11. Drivers last name in minimum 8 inch letters should be displayed under the cars number
6.12. There must be a minimum of 2” (two inches) of tire clearance from the body.
6.13. 4” (Four inches) of ground clearance.
6.14. Measurement from center of hub to rear top of deck; Maximum: 48 inches / Minimum: 34 inches
6.15. Maximum body width is 68 inches at any (widest) point. Minimum 53 inches.
6.16. Bottom of doors may be 68 inches wide Maximum
6.17. Rear of door may flare out 6 inches for tire clearance left side only.
6.18. Bottom of flare must be curved not pointed
6.19. Maximum rear width of car must be 67 inches at the widest point.
6.20. Roof width: Maximum - 50 inches / Minimum - 44 inches.
6.21. Roof length: Maximum - 56 inches / Minimum - 41 inches.
6.22. Maximum height on rear roof post vertical is 5 inches
6.23. Nose piece shall not be longer or wider than frame horns and shall not attached any further back than the radiator.
6.24. Spoiler shall be a maximum of 5 inches tall total material. You may run your spoiler at any angle you choose. 3 Spoiler supports may be used; this includes your side spoilers. Spoiler supports and side spoilers shall be 5 inches tall in the back and 2 inches tall in the front with a maximum total length of 12 inches at the bottom.
6.25. Spoiler may be lexan or aluminum. You may use the roof post / spoiler kit. This kit has the roof post and spoiler all made into one piece provided the spoiler does not exceed 5 inches tall
 
ILDLM2 said:
As with all the other sanctions, the UMP Rules are pretty straight forward for both the FRAME and the BODY. The local tracks need to enforce the rules they way they are written, PERIOD!
5. FRAMES
5.1. Factory production full 1950 or newer parallel American passenger car frames only. Frames must be complete in front of firewall. No cutting of frame in any way in front of firewall!
5.2. Front cross member may be notched for radiator clearance only. Cross members must be plated to retain complete box configuration..
5.3. Jeep, Bronco, 4-wheel drive, front wheel drive or sports car frames are not allowed. .
5.4. Minimum wheelbase is 108” (one hundred and eight inches). Maximum wheelbase is 112” (one hundred and twelve inches).
5.5. Rear of frame may be altered to accept leaf or coil springs. Any coil spring must be at least 4 1/2” (four and one-half inches) outside diameter. (Any spring)
5.6. Fiberglass lift bars are not permitted. Rear torsion bars are not permitted.
5.7. Frames may not be widened or narrowed and must be able to support roll cage on both sides and must be full and complete on both sides. Minimum frame and body height from ground is 4” (four inches). Front bumper must be mounted to the ends of the frame with the bottom loop parallel to the ground. Minimum of 1” pipe is required to support the car when being towed. Rear bumpers must be constructed of pipe or flat stock and must protect the fuel cell. Center of bumpers (front and rear) must have 25 inches of ground clearance with a 2” (two inches) tolerance. Rear bumper, Nerf bars must not extend beyond width of rear tires and must not contain any sharp edges.
5.8. Brace bars forward of the cage may not be higher than stock hood height.
5.9. Rear push-bars may not extend beyond 6” (six inches) of rear quarter panel.
5.10. All side bars and bumpers must be capped on ends.
6. BODIES (see drawing diagram for reference)
6.1. Bodies must follow dimension and appearance as shown on diagram. Body shall be the fabricated modified body from approved vendors.
6.2. Front windshield and rear window support must be stock appearing. Front window support may have clear Lexan support of no more than 16” (sixteen inches) including the roof post at the bottom and going straight to top.
6.3. Front roof post must be in a straight line from top to bottom.
6.4. Engine compartment will remain open. Side panels are not permitted. Hood sides may have a maximum 5” (five inch) drop and must be enclosed at rear of hood. Firewall on driver’s side must meet front of door.
6.5. Side fins or lips of any kind are not permitted along the entire length of car or any panel (hood, front, nose, and roof).
6.6. Bodies should extend no further forward than the back of the block.
6.7. A maximum of one (1) stone deflector, for rear mounted oil pumps, oil filters, and for the main oil tank will be permitted. The deflector may be made of steel, aluminum, or heavy gauge wire. The cover may only be mounted near the unit it is designed to protect with a maximum size of eighteen inches square (18” x18”) and mounted only from the upper right frame rail to the lower right frame rail.
6.8. Minimum height to top of roof is 42” (forty-two inches) with a maximum height not exceeding 52” (fifty-two inches).
6.9. Minimum height to top of deck is 28” (twenty-eight inches) with a maximum height not exceeding 38” (thirty-eight inches).
6.10. All cars must have a car number on both sides and the roof that are at least 18” (eighteen inches).
6.11. Drivers last name in minimum 8 inch letters should be displayed under the cars number
6.12. There must be a minimum of 2” (two inches) of tire clearance from the body.
6.13. 4” (Four inches) of ground clearance.
6.14. Measurement from center of hub to rear top of deck; Maximum: 48 inches / Minimum: 34 inches
6.15. Maximum body width is 68 inches at any (widest) point. Minimum 53 inches.
6.16. Bottom of doors may be 68 inches wide Maximum
6.17. Rear of door may flare out 6 inches for tire clearance left side only.
6.18. Bottom of flare must be curved not pointed
6.19. Maximum rear width of car must be 67 inches at the widest point.
6.20. Roof width: Maximum - 50 inches / Minimum - 44 inches.
6.21. Roof length: Maximum - 56 inches / Minimum - 41 inches.
6.22. Maximum height on rear roof post vertical is 5 inches
6.23. Nose piece shall not be longer or wider than frame horns and shall not attached any further back than the radiator.
6.24. Spoiler shall be a maximum of 5 inches tall total material. You may run your spoiler at any angle you choose. 3 Spoiler supports may be used; this includes your side spoilers. Spoiler supports and side spoilers shall be 5 inches tall in the back and 2 inches tall in the front with a maximum total length of 12 inches at the bottom.
6.25. Spoiler may be lexan or aluminum. You may use the roof post / spoiler kit. This kit has the roof post and spoiler all made into one piece provided the spoiler does not exceed 5 inches tall
Click to expand...

:eek::eek::eek::):p:D:D Well now..... Says right there in black & white don't it ????? Now enforce it..... Makes ya wonder how long it's been going on,guess all them chassis builders are gonna be real busy before the season starts :D:D:D:D
 
Yeah they will be busy. They will fix the cars in question, but will them tell the racers they need to buy thier new design cars in which they just make the modifications on how the stub is mounted.

Racers are thier own worse enemy. One new piece comes out and they all have to have it to keep up.

And lets talk about purses, the sportsmen purse is a little low compared to cost, but it is absurb what these Modified drivers are spending for $500 or $600 to win, and remember not everyone can win. You look back at 6th place on back and there is no way you could ever come close to breaking even.
 
rules, purse

if you read the article on the inthepits website you'll see that the Dirtworks genesis doesn't pass, does anyone know who else's wouldn't pass and what year they made the change? Jdearing hinted at impressive and I'd imagine almost all ford stub cars have been raised.
Does anyone remember the GRT raised rail late model and when it came out? I remember why but if I had the year I'd have an idea where to get some setup hints if I modify my own chassis. Just a thought...

As far as purses go I think thay have to be tied to crowd and car turnout, but I agree in that I wish a top ten would pay for fuel and two tires, most places payout won't. Just an opinion...
 
I don't see many tracks being able to raise their payouts this year. You have to look at the total amount being paid out to understand. Most tracks are paying out $14,000 or more for regular night shows.

What I was saying is the Modifieds have priced thier selves out of ballpark as for as being the middle class at the race track.

You take the amount of money 80% of the mods. at pevely are spending, and put it in a late model and you would be able to run midpack at Pevely & T. C. and be a front runner at Belleville. And the amount of purse money you bring home would probably let you brake even.
I know the front LM. at Pevely have bigger motors thats why I said that a Mod. motor would run mid pack but the purse in LM. is more.

I guarantee every front running Mod at Pevely spends more on tires than any L.M.
 
If you ditch the front sheet metal more people would run the class. lol Oh wait I just flashed back to 1987. Funny how what goes around comes around.
 
chucka said:
The guy that won at Malden Sat. night, his frame rail was done like that. I was told it was a GRT. He was fast no doubt about that. What i liked better than the right frame rail was a biscuit bar running from the lower 4 bar mount forward to the frame on the right side. The body was sprung up on the right side due to ruts or rubbing, it was visible. His crew guy was quick to pull the body back down over it in the scale area. It was cool looking.
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that car was a shaw chassis with updates from myself and predator chassis out of paragould ark. the biscuit bar is for entertainment purposes and the turned up frame is a safty issue. i have some friends in MS that lost a car last year from the frame rail digging into the track and it sent him for a ride; demolished his car. if they decide to make it illegal in my area i will gladly change it back.
 
If that track runs UMP or IMCA the a cut frame is already illegal. So that video explains the why and how so now the cheater frames can be teched and with little to no expense to the illegal frames they can be fixed and made legal. HHmmmmm will UMP be checking Robin\???? Frightining frame mods batman that is a good question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stay tuned for further details. :D
 
This whole "we are doin this for safety " is such bs . If the frame is digging in and your worried about safety stiffen the right front spring !!!!
 
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