The truth about why tire testing will never work realistically

K-Dawg30

K-Dawg30

Member
This was posted by a known karting tire guy on facebook regarding tire samples and lab tests in response to what I am assuming is Jason Feger's DQ.... here is the 100% factual truth

"Ok this is for those of you that don't quite have the understanding of the lab test. Now first off you have take into consideration that there are many different chemicals out there , not to mention chemicals that are combined to make a common chemical that are slightly different due to who produced them. Now you take a common chemical we will say " hot lap &WD 40" and have it tested it will come back with a sheet similar to this with many different possibilities or matches. It shows the percentage match out of a 1,000 that it could be along with the absorbance rate which is the determined amount found in the product being tested. So part of the data is error or computer matches that are not correct and others are chemicals that combined into one make something all together different. So in order to understand what you have , you would to start testing other chemicals to get your controls. So if in example you would get wd 40 & test it because you knew the product had wd 40 in it then you can take those two data sheets cross reference and then cancel out . Then you would have to continue to search and test till you found a cross reference to the remaining data. So in testing for prep in tires it makes it hard to get exactly rite unless you can have the prep there to test so you can combine like substances found and say yes this is prep and not my race fuel that my crew member spilled or whatever else you can think of. Now there are other tests that can be done but all run into similar problems of playing detective and wasting large amounts of money and time."

Attatched is what a lab result looks like when it comes back. Bottom line guys, technically speaking, dawn dish soap alters the rubber. We all know it doesnt give an advantage though...and Im sorry plain water does not get your tires clean. Idk what the answer is but maybe this will shed some light into just how complicated this is.
 

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Good post. I've never seen the results before.

Guess I don't know how a driver knows what is a banned chemical -- this is a list of ingrediants from Dawn Dish Washing detergent.

Triclosan, water, magnesium, sodium dodecylbenzene sulfonate, ammonium laureth sulfate, lauryl polyglucose, lauramidopropylanine oxide, SD Alcohol 3A, sodium xylene sulfonate, sodium chloride, fragrance, pentasodium pentetate, sodium bisulfite, quaternium 15, D&C Orange 4.

Would any of these be banned?
 
They've made it pretty clear that anything other than what is used to make the tire is a considered a banned chemical.
 
This sounds like a Hoosier Tire wet dream. Force/scare racers to mount up brand new tires each nigh for fear of it not testing against the baseline of a new tire. Brilliant if you ask me!

Heaven forbid someones fuel cap comes loose or grenades a motor and oils down the track. Make sure you have a meeting with all your corner workers to make sure they don't force cars to drive through all that 'illegal tire prep' when trying to clean up the track.

Oh and don't even think of taking your car to the car wash to wash all that oil off your equipment because that will make you cheater, no better than Bloomquist.
 
There would never be a tire come back legit if you all believed this hype of what you drive through, washing your tires with and what chemicals are in the water were the cause of drivers getting caught...
 
The only way tire testing will be correct is if you test several tires from the same field of cars. Then that allows you to cancel out anything found on all tires from that race. That is the only way it would ever be fair.
 
If this is true then Feger should be able to prove exactly what is in his tire. Still doesn't make it ok but could shine some light on a bad situation
 
kenwoodjeff said:
This sounds like a Hoosier Tire wet dream. Force/scare racers to mount up brand new tires each nigh for fear of it not testing against the baseline of a new tire. Brilliant if you ask me!

Heaven forbid someones fuel cap comes loose or grenades a motor and oils down the track. Make sure you have a meeting with all your corner workers to make sure they don't force cars to drive through all that 'illegal tire prep' when trying to clean up the track.

Oh and don't even think of taking your car to the car wash to wash all that oil off your equipment because that will make you cheater, no better than Bloomquist.
Click to expand...
Who really started pushing for tire testing racers or hoosier tire because the only real winner would be hoosier tire.
 
Again you guys arent understanding. It is to expensive to test for a certain chemical. And all they are doing is a comparitive test. if you run a tire that has set for a while and not been protected, it is going to lose it "natural oils" and dry out somewhat......aka dry rotting in a sense! with that being said it is not going to test the same as a new tire. People are so quick to talk and judge before they have the details or have half of an idea what they are talking about!!!
 
Jimmy your well connected maybe you could shed some light on some questions i have. First off exactly what is that stuff pevely puts in the water that leaves tires with that blue crap. Second. If the tests are comparative, wouldnt whatever that is throw a red flag on a tire test. And third where can we find info about exactly how tires are tested and learn about the process. The tires are property of whoever purchased them and that person should be entitled to such information should a test be administered
 
jdearing said:
There would never be a tire come back legit if you all believed this hype of what you drive through, washing your tires with and what chemicals are in the water were the cause of drivers getting caught...
Click to expand...


Jimmy, I do not let myself get sucked into hype. My opinion is based strictly on research and personal experience. I defend no one and agree that tire doping is hurting our sport.

The points that I make are regarding the inconsistencies and uncontrollable variables that a tire goes through during its lifespan.

I know that with any type of testing there are false positives, a margin of error that needs to be factored in. (ex. Turning on a CB radio without adjusting the squelch and reacting to every piece of static that comes through the speaker)

Generating a chemical fingerprint based upon a new tire (one that never touched a track) does not magically create a “go/no-go” gauge of a cheated up tire. This is the #1 flaw of comparison testing; you have no way to “squelch” out the noise.

I think this issue strikes a personal cord with me because I see that an overwhelming majority of racers would be labeled cheaters under this testing procedure, included myself! I used the local car-wash, Purple-Power, Mean Green, dish soap and whatever else was cheap and convenient. Soapy water was not used to doctor up tires, it was used for intended purpose, to clean and I like to have my equipment CLEAN! Any racer that has ever had the misfortune to only have a garden hose to wash their car will tell you that cleaning tires with water alone, does nothing but turn them into rolling slime balls…

I guess I am just a no good cheater, a menace to the racing community. I just wish I could have won at least one feature, you know with all that cheating I was participating in…...


Again, I firmly believe that tire doctoring is hurting our sport and I am all for fair and accurate testing. Telling me that I am not allowed to wash my car at the local Car-Wash is simply poor camouflage for flawed testing. Sanctioning bodies need to step back for a moment and think; at what point does tarnishing driver’s names & reputations on inconclusive or flawed evidence harm our sport more than the problem itself?

Jeff
 
Seems odd to me that (in feger's case) that it was his rf tire....... 25 team reports cleaning and storing tires in the off season....... Smart tires are expensive.......... Alright now food for though and questions raised.......... Was all 4 tires on the car tested if so how did the rr look........ What advantage would be to prepping Rf tire.......... Or if you had cleaned and stored used tires would it seem likely they would end up on the front of the car........ These guys put new rear tires on for these races so to me it makes sense......... I clean my tires weekly with simple green and they feel much more conditioned after......... That's my tire i should be able to clean it..........Im just glad Im in a division low enough nobodies testing our stuff.... Because i wouldn't let anybody take a sample from my tires legal or not........ Because it doesn't sound like it matters to me............ I think cleaning your tires with simple green or any other product is tarnishing theses tests and the guys doing maintenance on they're tires like this is ultimately getting them labeled as cheaters....... And ever since the jimmy vs nick scandal.. if your even assumed a tire doper your labeled the lance Armstrong of dirt racing......... Sorry about the rant just my opinion..........tired of hearing about some new tire doper each week..... When nobody seems to know whats really the deal..... If you ask me the stories about tire doing is hurting the sport more than the actual doping..... Esp in the Woo circuit..... Those guys got money dope em all let the competition sort em out............. Sorry i know its just a rant......
 
i dont see how anybody can actually test a tire. in my mind, the tire should be tested against a tire from the same day, same shift, same batch from the tire it came from otherwise according to science it wont be the same. what about how the tire is handled in the factory? in the truck from the factory to the regional dealer? then from the regional dealer to the store it gets sold from? then what about how the tire is handled, stored, etc by the store that has the tire for sale? in my mind, the water at every race track that the tire has been raced at should be tested, as well as the water coming out of the hose where the tire gets washed at. what about the material that comes off the grinding / buffing disc? according to physics, while you can see the rubber come off the tire when you grind if, some of the sandpaper you buff your tire with goes into the rubber. i could go on for atleast another 3 pages about soil samples, misc fluids a race car tire comes into contact with in the pits or on the race track, the way the sample is taken and tested, etc. way too many variables.
 
I55 was using calcium chloride to keep down dust, it may not soften your tires but it sure did ruin the shine on a trailer floor where the tire sat. In that being said that chemical came from the tires after being on track which in return would or could be considered chemical altered tires!
 
Just for the sake of argument... If in fact it is possible to get a "false positive" from the racing surface or from cleaning your tires then everyone would be found with illegal tires. The fact is that is not the case. Not every tire is found to be illegal, therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that those tires that have been found to be illegal have been treated differently than all the other tires. Washing your tires with simple green that is diluted in water with a scrub brush is not the same as soaking your tire with simple green(or any other chemical) and wrapping it in plastic. They don't call it "soaking" for nothing.
 
SOLUTION: Open Tire Rule!

Unfortunately, that will never happen as there is too much money involved for certain parties.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Seems the solution is pretty simple. UMP and Hoosier should sell doped tires. UMP wins because they have nothing to test. Hoosier wins because everyone will be on their tires pre-doped from the factory.

If purchased in bulk the chemicals would cost less and the cost of tires would just go up a bit. Of course the price of tires go up anyway at least now there is a reason.

Pre-dope charge extra, UMP wins, Hoosier wins, big name drivers win and that makes fans happy.

Just a thought

John Barr
The Trashdog
 
I think these tests are a problem, and the only test and simplest one that should be used is the durometer hardness test. If the lm20s are the softest then set minimum there. Personally I think the lm40 or 55 should be the only tire if any tire rule. Open rules let em do What they want. Chemical tests can have too many variables so go with hardness test and keep all the drama out!
 
You can treat a tire to make it"fire"and it doesn't necessarily Chang the durometer reading if it were that simple there would be no need for lab tests.open tire rules mean nothing bloomquist Chris maddened and the others run open tire rule and been caught it is about making the tires work better and last a few nights longer.
 
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