Before We Begin Again In 08:
- Thread starter Uncle Ed.
- Start date
Why is Jim so fast? why are the other fords so fast? No one knows what i have in my motor nos? stroker? aluminum head? maybe its not even a chevy motor it could be a stock boat motor one of the big ones 3.5 no one knows because no one ever asked to see it. But i can tell it is killing certain people. If it does have the head on it what does it matter it still is not as fast as the front fords. Which brings me back to what i said a year or 2 ago if you want to keep the cost down and keep things equal there has to be 2 sets of rules 1 for a pushrod motor and 1 for a camer ask any engine builder that has been involved in 4cyl racing
JPR
Member
Yep....
Driver,setup,engine it takes all three in any class. What happened with Bad Bobs car in 06? as opposed to 05? One of the three in the equation was taken away. Big difference in finishing position most nights. Right Bad Bob? On decent tires, i really doubt that any of the 4 cylinder cars at the big money race were overpowering the track, or anytime that i seen them in 03/04. Steve, did Smurf talk to you about them parts? Jon Reando
Driver,setup,engine it takes all three in any class. What happened with Bad Bobs car in 06? as opposed to 05? One of the three in the equation was taken away. Big difference in finishing position most nights. Right Bad Bob? On decent tires, i really doubt that any of the 4 cylinder cars at the big money race were overpowering the track, or anytime that i seen them in 03/04. Steve, did Smurf talk to you about them parts? Jon Reando
You are doing great Uncle Ed. From what I see all but one on this post wants to keep the cost down and have the cars teched to be legal. I just don't understand why people in all classes, not just ours, want to open their class up as opposed to moving up a class.
duckhunter330
Steve "Duck" LaGarce
Well Jack what I have seen is, certain people got what they wanted with the rules, destroyed the "RAMS" organization, and have now left us with a ministock class that is almost not even affordable to be competitive. But hey why would they care they are not even racing ministocks anymore.
As for the rules at MCS, I must say, why would Mel want to change his rules? Look at the car count they were having towards the end of the year. As a promoter of a track I wouldnt change unless the car count was to low.
Jon, if you are talking about what belonged to smurf, yes smurf and I are all square.
Steve "Living in the Past" LaGarce
As for the rules at MCS, I must say, why would Mel want to change his rules? Look at the car count they were having towards the end of the year. As a promoter of a track I wouldnt change unless the car count was to low.
Jon, if you are talking about what belonged to smurf, yes smurf and I are all square.
Steve "Living in the Past" LaGarce
duckhunter330
Steve "Duck" LaGarce
Jim, how much would it cost me to have what you have? Not what it cost you off "EBAY"!!!!!!
How much does it cost to port and polish a head? Or to buy a Pontiac Superduty Aluminum Brodix race head? Not counting the Jezel rockers, or valves.
How much are aftermarket Rods?
How much does Thompson want for his car? Something like $7,000??
Jim I dont know why you are getting angry with me I was giving you a compliment earlier about how you have done your testing to get your truck to handle. Do you have a guilty conscience or something?
How much does it cost to port and polish a head? Or to buy a Pontiac Superduty Aluminum Brodix race head? Not counting the Jezel rockers, or valves.
How much are aftermarket Rods?
How much does Thompson want for his car? Something like $7,000??
Jim I dont know why you are getting angry with me I was giving you a compliment earlier about how you have done your testing to get your truck to handle. Do you have a guilty conscience or something?
I am not mad at anyone i am used to it. The topic of this is cost and all i am asking is how much more money will it cost to be competitive compared to last year not the cost of what you think someone else has. You have a ford you wouldnt need some pontiac sd head. Do you have to have that to be competitive did the front runing fords have them? Everyone says the cost is out of control i just want to see some figures of what people spent this year not just talk.
so what you are saying is if you have a chevy you have to spend a fortune to compete with the fords then the answer is simple to keep the cost down you have to take something away from the fords i say no adj cam gears and only dished pistons no porting of the head and a stock cam that should do it
Uncle Ed.
Team Heidenhain Racing
how much indeed!
Hey Boys and Girls:
I can tell you about how much I spent on the engines for the 94T,94S and the 15A and you could all cry along with me.
That would get us nowhere.
We all must remember what the stronger components are made for.
LONGEVITY!
You should spend the money to build an engine (irregardless of brand) to stay together through thick and thin.
YES:
Light rods and light aftermarket cranks and pistons are part of the mix, but these are not as much of a horse power advantage as you might think.
What I guaranty you they will do is help to insure that your ride is running at the end of the race.
Something that must happen in order to win!
My first year helping Tony and Scott was fun, but I could not believe that the rules restricted the use of good connecting rods and other components that would insure the engines stayed together.
In my first year doing the team thing I did build 2 engines well within the RAMS rules.
This was difficult to do with the engine shop at my disposal.
The question kept coming up "Why can't you slick up the bottom end"
ANSWER:
It was against the rules.
I said it at the meeting and I will say it again.
The use of aftermarket parts is necessary to insure that you are there at the end of the event.
2 warmed over junk yard engines per season is just not what I see as a viable solution to this.
Maybe all of you have nothing else to do each week but repair your junkyard power plants.
I don't want to even entertain this type of foolishness.
Have any of you ever been in the car when the bottom end explodes beneath your feet at 8000 RPM?
A piston weights about 5000 lbs when the rod has to return in to the bottom of the bore at 7500 RPM.
If I lifted your car up over your head and it was held by just the wrist pin from your stock rod, would you climb under it?
None of these engines were designed to do this, you have to change the parts around in order to make it survive.
That is why I came up with the spec engine.
Jim is right about the 2.5 or any other push-rod style engine.
They need help in other areas to make the same power the OHC engines do.
That is why we would need to research the combination to get all of the brands to the same total horse power output.
This can be done using the dyno to prove the combinations work well and are kept equal.
EXAMPLE:
If they all were 150 shaft horse power and the torque curve was similar the competition would be closer and the one with the most money would not win most of the time. (REMEMBER THE PAY GO-KART TRACK EXAMPLE?)
I am not sure what the final cost would be on such an engine, but the more of them that are being produced the lower the cost so all of the area tracks would need to agree to run this type of rule package in order to make the engines affordable...
Don't get rid of your big or cheater engine just yet.
Save it for the end of the year for the big money races:
SOUNDS LIKE A BIG UNDERTAKING DON'T IT.
This is why the government spends so much of our tax dolors to enforce the rules.
Because if there is no hell to pay then why follow the rules?
ANARCHY!
The answer to our class is not more rules and police to enforce them, just take out the biggest bit#h everyone has and find a way to eliminate it.
If you scream about the cars handling better then the trucks or vice versa and that becomes our next biggest bit#h then you might fine that vehicle eliminated from the rules of competition in lieu of a COT type of car or truck.
Even though I am suggesting this spec or create style engine this still may not be the answer to it all...
Lets be careful what we wish for.
Just like your Mom told you, follow the rules.
And when you asked why she told you because I SAID TO!!!
You Should Always Listen To Your Mom:
She knows best....
Keep it coming.
We are getting there:
Ed Albietz aka: Uncle Ed.
Team HEIDENHAIN
Hey Boys and Girls:
I can tell you about how much I spent on the engines for the 94T,94S and the 15A and you could all cry along with me.
That would get us nowhere.
We all must remember what the stronger components are made for.
LONGEVITY!
You should spend the money to build an engine (irregardless of brand) to stay together through thick and thin.
YES:
Light rods and light aftermarket cranks and pistons are part of the mix, but these are not as much of a horse power advantage as you might think.
What I guaranty you they will do is help to insure that your ride is running at the end of the race.
Something that must happen in order to win!
My first year helping Tony and Scott was fun, but I could not believe that the rules restricted the use of good connecting rods and other components that would insure the engines stayed together.
In my first year doing the team thing I did build 2 engines well within the RAMS rules.
This was difficult to do with the engine shop at my disposal.
The question kept coming up "Why can't you slick up the bottom end"
ANSWER:
It was against the rules.
I said it at the meeting and I will say it again.
The use of aftermarket parts is necessary to insure that you are there at the end of the event.
2 warmed over junk yard engines per season is just not what I see as a viable solution to this.
Maybe all of you have nothing else to do each week but repair your junkyard power plants.
I don't want to even entertain this type of foolishness.
Have any of you ever been in the car when the bottom end explodes beneath your feet at 8000 RPM?
A piston weights about 5000 lbs when the rod has to return in to the bottom of the bore at 7500 RPM.
If I lifted your car up over your head and it was held by just the wrist pin from your stock rod, would you climb under it?
None of these engines were designed to do this, you have to change the parts around in order to make it survive.
That is why I came up with the spec engine.
Jim is right about the 2.5 or any other push-rod style engine.
They need help in other areas to make the same power the OHC engines do.
That is why we would need to research the combination to get all of the brands to the same total horse power output.
This can be done using the dyno to prove the combinations work well and are kept equal.
EXAMPLE:
If they all were 150 shaft horse power and the torque curve was similar the competition would be closer and the one with the most money would not win most of the time. (REMEMBER THE PAY GO-KART TRACK EXAMPLE?)
I am not sure what the final cost would be on such an engine, but the more of them that are being produced the lower the cost so all of the area tracks would need to agree to run this type of rule package in order to make the engines affordable...
Don't get rid of your big or cheater engine just yet.
Save it for the end of the year for the big money races:
SOUNDS LIKE A BIG UNDERTAKING DON'T IT.
This is why the government spends so much of our tax dolors to enforce the rules.
Because if there is no hell to pay then why follow the rules?
ANARCHY!
The answer to our class is not more rules and police to enforce them, just take out the biggest bit#h everyone has and find a way to eliminate it.
If you scream about the cars handling better then the trucks or vice versa and that becomes our next biggest bit#h then you might fine that vehicle eliminated from the rules of competition in lieu of a COT type of car or truck.
Even though I am suggesting this spec or create style engine this still may not be the answer to it all...
Lets be careful what we wish for.
Just like your Mom told you, follow the rules.
And when you asked why she told you because I SAID TO!!!
You Should Always Listen To Your Mom:
She knows best....
Keep it coming.
We are getting there:
Ed Albietz aka: Uncle Ed.
Team HEIDENHAIN
SMURFBLUE3
FORD PARTS PUSHER
OKAY ...
here is the facts about motors...
if you want the most bang for your buck go FORD
these motors have been around decades compared to the 2.5 (s-10 motors) and the 22 r.. so there is more goodies for them... a ford2300 in mini stocks is equvilant to a 350 in a sportsmen... yes you can build other motors in both classes but you will have to do more homework and may cost you more....
all agree??????
a stock ford will take the higer rpms unlike it's chevy counter parts.....
Chevy guys can you run a stock rod 2.5 at 6800 to 8000 rpm every night for a whole year???? no!
this is where the rods came into play the ford guys wanted to help the chevy guys from blowing motors...
(more cost)
as far as adjustable cam gear that is one advantage to running a ford....
when I first was getting into ministocks I had a choice
ford
chevy
ford
cons.. was no frame, hard to find used wheels and tires
pros... but had cheap rebuild kits and tons of goodies cheap,plus 8 inch rear easy to change gears
chevy
cons.. expensive rebuilds .. diffrent flowing waterpumps (ask burch about this) diffenrheads cams combo's with push rod lenghts (ask bill nickleson) rearends had to change whole rear out...
pros... has a frame could use my puresteet wheels on it, use metric a-arms and spindles to lower front of truck..tons of interchanable parts
toyota (the best ministock out there)
cons.. hard to find expensive to build motors hard to find used wheels
pros fast cars
every body got complaining about how fast the fords was... the main reason we was fast is a proven motor
and us ford guys will share the secrets to make more power (with stock parts) unlike the chevy guys they were all for one only (except a few like bill and shannon)
I would garuntee there is a stock this or that to make a 2.5 scream but chevy aint sharing... 99 percent of the ford racers know all the stock stuff to make a 2300 scream...
here is the facts about motors...
if you want the most bang for your buck go FORD
these motors have been around decades compared to the 2.5 (s-10 motors) and the 22 r.. so there is more goodies for them... a ford2300 in mini stocks is equvilant to a 350 in a sportsmen... yes you can build other motors in both classes but you will have to do more homework and may cost you more....
all agree??????
a stock ford will take the higer rpms unlike it's chevy counter parts.....
Chevy guys can you run a stock rod 2.5 at 6800 to 8000 rpm every night for a whole year???? no!
this is where the rods came into play the ford guys wanted to help the chevy guys from blowing motors...
(more cost)
as far as adjustable cam gear that is one advantage to running a ford....
when I first was getting into ministocks I had a choice
ford
chevy
ford
cons.. was no frame, hard to find used wheels and tires
pros... but had cheap rebuild kits and tons of goodies cheap,plus 8 inch rear easy to change gears
chevy
cons.. expensive rebuilds .. diffrent flowing waterpumps (ask burch about this) diffenrheads cams combo's with push rod lenghts (ask bill nickleson) rearends had to change whole rear out...
pros... has a frame could use my puresteet wheels on it, use metric a-arms and spindles to lower front of truck..tons of interchanable parts
toyota (the best ministock out there)
cons.. hard to find expensive to build motors hard to find used wheels
pros fast cars
every body got complaining about how fast the fords was... the main reason we was fast is a proven motor
and us ford guys will share the secrets to make more power (with stock parts) unlike the chevy guys they were all for one only (except a few like bill and shannon)
I would garuntee there is a stock this or that to make a 2.5 scream but chevy aint sharing... 99 percent of the ford racers know all the stock stuff to make a 2300 scream...
cost
from carb to pan-i have less than $1000 in my motor-but it is done right,to work together-won about 75% of the races i ran this year-people are looking over important areas-gear ratio and setup i have always stuck by-still running the same engine package as when i won the 05 rams championship-even got tore down at mcs that night and was asked how i won with that pile of shi@-i took it as a compliment-would of ran mcs this year but when the decision to add lead to the front of cars(winners)-that is when i decided to race somewhere 4 cylinders would be respected alittle more.the hole has been dug ,now it is up to you guys how to fix it-racing is not for the poor-but this class was a "budjet" class when it was started-my opinion was aftermarket rods were ok(helped chevy's)but when you talk aftermarket heads,or porting and polishing-the end is near-my car is for sale,figured 5 years in a mini is long enough,have a $1200 a-mod that drives like a cadilac(on ice)
from carb to pan-i have less than $1000 in my motor-but it is done right,to work together-won about 75% of the races i ran this year-people are looking over important areas-gear ratio and setup i have always stuck by-still running the same engine package as when i won the 05 rams championship-even got tore down at mcs that night and was asked how i won with that pile of shi@-i took it as a compliment-would of ran mcs this year but when the decision to add lead to the front of cars(winners)-that is when i decided to race somewhere 4 cylinders would be respected alittle more.the hole has been dug ,now it is up to you guys how to fix it-racing is not for the poor-but this class was a "budjet" class when it was started-my opinion was aftermarket rods were ok(helped chevy's)but when you talk aftermarket heads,or porting and polishing-the end is near-my car is for sale,figured 5 years in a mini is long enough,have a $1200 a-mod that drives like a cadilac(on ice)
i agree
cheap-cheap-fun-fun-but build slowly and do it right the first time-take your racecars off the tralior during the week and try to make it faster-i read the internet all winter long trying to find that 10 th of a second a lap-fords don't need anything fancy-cam,shave head,rod bolts,500 holley,and a foot to back it up-i have tried to help people and have been told i was lying to them-even showed them on my car-i have always been here to help people go faster,on a "budjet"-i acutally turned wrenches on a car this year for about 2 hours-they took it out and said it had never ran that good before-the next week the guy paid my way into the races.a stock ford will screem and it can be done on a budjet-
cheap-cheap-fun-fun-but build slowly and do it right the first time-take your racecars off the tralior during the week and try to make it faster-i read the internet all winter long trying to find that 10 th of a second a lap-fords don't need anything fancy-cam,shave head,rod bolts,500 holley,and a foot to back it up-i have tried to help people and have been told i was lying to them-even showed them on my car-i have always been here to help people go faster,on a "budjet"-i acutally turned wrenches on a car this year for about 2 hours-they took it out and said it had never ran that good before-the next week the guy paid my way into the races.a stock ford will screem and it can be done on a budjet-
Uncle Ed.
Team Heidenhain Racing
Keep It Up Guys:
All of this is supporting my argument that we might want to use a create engine in this class.
If you can make a ford scream for little or no money you are probably doing much of the labor your self.
Not everyone has these skills.
So folks like Shannon will always have the advantage over say someone who has never built one of these.
DUH:
His car has been fast ever since I first saw it.
BUT:
Beware of the Chevy guys.
They have been doing their home work and getting better and better with each season.
I have learned a ton of new stuff these last few years and the most important thing I learned is the biggest engine is not always the winner, but you have to have all of your candles lit to finish and that means if you can't do it right, you have to pay someone to do it for you.
The key to this type of racing is;
BALANCE:
A perfect balance of
Horse Power
Torque
Handling
and Nerve or seat time which ever you prefer.
We can't have it all all of the time:
SO;
Scream at the guy with the big engine as the reason why you can't win.
He probubly can't put all the power he is making onto the dirt anyway.
If he could, then he would run away and hide within a lap or 2.
(As good as Jim's truck runs, it still takes him several laps to catch the rear of the field.)
If everyones engines were equal, what would we complain about?
It just seems to me that if we all had the same stuff there would be less to scream about.
Maybe this is a part of the Stock Car culture I have yet to learn.
Where I come from, when it is broken, you fix it...
Maybe this ain't broken! I just thought it was!
Keep it coming boys:
This may be the best thread ever.
One for the record books.
Thanks for all of your opinions:
Uncle Ed.
All of this is supporting my argument that we might want to use a create engine in this class.
If you can make a ford scream for little or no money you are probably doing much of the labor your self.
Not everyone has these skills.
So folks like Shannon will always have the advantage over say someone who has never built one of these.
DUH:
His car has been fast ever since I first saw it.
BUT:
Beware of the Chevy guys.
They have been doing their home work and getting better and better with each season.
I have learned a ton of new stuff these last few years and the most important thing I learned is the biggest engine is not always the winner, but you have to have all of your candles lit to finish and that means if you can't do it right, you have to pay someone to do it for you.
The key to this type of racing is;
BALANCE:
A perfect balance of
Horse Power
Torque
Handling
and Nerve or seat time which ever you prefer.
We can't have it all all of the time:
SO;
Scream at the guy with the big engine as the reason why you can't win.
He probubly can't put all the power he is making onto the dirt anyway.
If he could, then he would run away and hide within a lap or 2.
(As good as Jim's truck runs, it still takes him several laps to catch the rear of the field.)
If everyones engines were equal, what would we complain about?
It just seems to me that if we all had the same stuff there would be less to scream about.
Maybe this is a part of the Stock Car culture I have yet to learn.
Where I come from, when it is broken, you fix it...
Maybe this ain't broken! I just thought it was!
Keep it coming boys:
This may be the best thread ever.
One for the record books.
Thanks for all of your opinions:
Uncle Ed.
SMURFBLUE3
FORD PARTS PUSHER
Ed you kinda missed shannon's point when he started with the number 8 he didn't know all the good stuff he researched researched on the net about these just as Wolf,Jpr,Rick and I did... it not a class of knock the window's out and go racing....also in the glory days the leader didn't catch the pack until almost couple of the last laps.... it's study, try, fail, study,try,suceed... Ed on a side note... have you messed with a 1.9 s-10 motor yet?
the old days
quit reminding me smurf-wow the learning days cost 6 motors(chevy)and alot of cursing-the internet is our friend-use it to learn about valvetrain geomotry,timing,gear ratios,carbs,cams,handling,and everything else you need to run up front-my first car(pimto)was a sad case-bone stock motor that came in it-wouldn't turn ove 5500 rpm-timing,what was that-first night out took third at benton-built it in the back yard-fords are fast but a legal chevy is just as fast if done right-#52 marty boyer was the hardest competion i ever had-the man could flat drive.now we all know chevys are a time bomb,it will happen-the original rams rules were by far the best competition-i would just add aftermarket steel rods to help chevys-i wouldn't run them in my ford because of the weight issue-before we teched the cars all the time-me,smurf,jpr,cruse,harris-we always teched something-i feel that is where mcs is lacking-check clutches and flywheels,roller cams,how many gears are in the trans.-easy to do,but you got to know what you are looking for-many tech people have no clue,just want in free
quit reminding me smurf-wow the learning days cost 6 motors(chevy)and alot of cursing-the internet is our friend-use it to learn about valvetrain geomotry,timing,gear ratios,carbs,cams,handling,and everything else you need to run up front-my first car(pimto)was a sad case-bone stock motor that came in it-wouldn't turn ove 5500 rpm-timing,what was that-first night out took third at benton-built it in the back yard-fords are fast but a legal chevy is just as fast if done right-#52 marty boyer was the hardest competion i ever had-the man could flat drive.now we all know chevys are a time bomb,it will happen-the original rams rules were by far the best competition-i would just add aftermarket steel rods to help chevys-i wouldn't run them in my ford because of the weight issue-before we teched the cars all the time-me,smurf,jpr,cruse,harris-we always teched something-i feel that is where mcs is lacking-check clutches and flywheels,roller cams,how many gears are in the trans.-easy to do,but you got to know what you are looking for-many tech people have no clue,just want in free
Wheel21
Modified Racer
Jack...i'm with you on that one....I knew what i was going to spend on a ministock and wasn't going to spend any more...when i was ready to spend more and go faster i moved up..
Wheel21
Modified Racer
