liquidqwik
Justin Anderson
Hey Ben, do you give a reach around too! 
WKA outlaws Tire Prep and Cutting 9/27/06
- Thread starter michealprater
- Start date
liquidqwik
Justin Anderson
I gotta say Ben, I agree with your thoughts about opening up the tire rule. I don't think it would make things any cheaper unless we all had to run 1 tire and it had to be above a particular duro reading. And I'm sure there's flaws in that idea. ha! There are very few ways to make racing cheaper anymore, even kart racing. If we couldn't use prep, I'd own a set of 11's, 22's, 33's, 44's, 55's, HT3's, and Vegas. Then you would need extra left sides for stagger options. At approx. $350 a set, that's $2,450 for one set of each compound with no stagger options. Or, take two sets ($700) with the right prep ($75) and go racing. Like Ben said, "Racers r going to do what it takes to win so no matter how u look at it the same guys will run up front unless the others do there homework."
Justin
I don't think it would make things any cheaper unless we all had to run 1 tire and it had to be above a particular duro reading. And I'm sure there's flaws in that idea. ha! There are very few ways to make racing cheaper anymore, even kart racing. If we couldn't use prep, I'd own a set of 11's, 22's, 33's, 44's, 55's, HT3's, and Vegas. Then you would need extra left sides for stagger options. At approx. $350 a set, that's $2,450 for one set of each compound with no stagger options. Or, take two sets ($700) with the right prep ($75) and go racing. Like Ben said, "Racers r going to do what it takes to win so no matter how u look at it the same guys will run up front unless the others do there homework."Justin
liquidqwik
Justin Anderson
i gotcha brother, will discuss this further later.
Ok
Like I said prep or no prep the people that will spend big money to win will still spend it. What I said and meant about the open tire rule is that with Burris tires they seem to me at least to severely slow down after a handful on nights but it doesn't seem that way with maxxis at least. The guy that can maybe afford 1 or 2 set of tires a year if he gets say a maxxis at least he still has tires that have a fighting chance against the guys putting on a new set every 4 or 5 weeks. OK now if we want to really equal the playing field how about this, each racer gets one set of tires purchased from the track and everybody's tires are marked as theirs, same compound, no prep at the track and you have to turn the tires in at the end of the night they are stored for you until next week and the only way you can get a new tire is if you get it damaged in the race or it is showing cords. That is the only way you will take the tire war out of the equation. Even with the one tire compound and duro rule someone will still bolt on a new set every few weeks to have a advantage.
Like I said prep or no prep the people that will spend big money to win will still spend it. What I said and meant about the open tire rule is that with Burris tires they seem to me at least to severely slow down after a handful on nights but it doesn't seem that way with maxxis at least. The guy that can maybe afford 1 or 2 set of tires a year if he gets say a maxxis at least he still has tires that have a fighting chance against the guys putting on a new set every 4 or 5 weeks. OK now if we want to really equal the playing field how about this, each racer gets one set of tires purchased from the track and everybody's tires are marked as theirs, same compound, no prep at the track and you have to turn the tires in at the end of the night they are stored for you until next week and the only way you can get a new tire is if you get it damaged in the race or it is showing cords. That is the only way you will take the tire war out of the equation. Even with the one tire compound and duro rule someone will still bolt on a new set every few weeks to have a advantage.
liquidqwik
Justin Anderson
Andy, I agree that the Maxxis is a much better tire and does seem to last longer. If a racer only planned on buying 1 or 2 sets of tires over the course of the year, the Maxxis would be a better tire. Remember though, at Bedrock for instance, Burris donates to the point fund, which is probably a major reason Frank runs Burris only. Maxxis wanted nothing to do with it.
Although I believe your on the right track, I see a few problems with local tracks being responsible for people's tires.
First of all, what if something happens to the tires during the week at the track. If the track owner is reponsible for them, that's a huge cost/burden to take on for a local track owner. It may work for larger organizations/kart series, but it would be a strain on a local track owner. Also, how would the track owner accomodate new racers. To all of you who are Bedrock regulars, you would order your tires at the first meeting. But what if someone just shows up with 3 karts and doesn't normally race there. The owner would need mounted wheels and tires for racers who randomly show up. Another major cost to the track owner.
Secondly, your local track would also need to staff a few more people to police tires thoughout the day/night. The tires may be stamped as yours, but somebody has to check them. With 50 karts in the pits, that's a lot of tires to keep track of. More cost to the track owner.
Finally, 34gfmf might be able to elaborate more on this, but I'll explain as best I can. In some sprint car racing they went to a tire rule where you had to run the same tire for qualifying and the heat races unless something happened to it. Well, all the sudden things started happening to the tires between qualifying and the heats (got a hole in it, cut side wall, etc.) They found a way to bolt on new rubber. They found a way around the rule.
Without major contributions it would be hard for the local track owner to police tires. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just throwing some reasons out why it would be hard for a local track to do it.
Justin
Although I believe your on the right track, I see a few problems with local tracks being responsible for people's tires.
First of all, what if something happens to the tires during the week at the track. If the track owner is reponsible for them, that's a huge cost/burden to take on for a local track owner. It may work for larger organizations/kart series, but it would be a strain on a local track owner. Also, how would the track owner accomodate new racers. To all of you who are Bedrock regulars, you would order your tires at the first meeting. But what if someone just shows up with 3 karts and doesn't normally race there. The owner would need mounted wheels and tires for racers who randomly show up. Another major cost to the track owner.
Secondly, your local track would also need to staff a few more people to police tires thoughout the day/night. The tires may be stamped as yours, but somebody has to check them. With 50 karts in the pits, that's a lot of tires to keep track of. More cost to the track owner.
Finally, 34gfmf might be able to elaborate more on this, but I'll explain as best I can. In some sprint car racing they went to a tire rule where you had to run the same tire for qualifying and the heat races unless something happened to it. Well, all the sudden things started happening to the tires between qualifying and the heats (got a hole in it, cut side wall, etc.) They found a way to bolt on new rubber. They found a way around the rule.
Without major contributions it would be hard for the local track owner to police tires. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm just throwing some reasons out why it would be hard for a local track to do it.
Justin
I agree with Liquidqwik if they impounded tires the kart count at Bedrock would drop off bigtime! the only karts u would get is locals, no new racers would show up.
I also don't think new rubber is that much faster at bedrock! we all can agree that prep will outdo new rubber any day of the week at Bedrock, Bedrock is a no bite track which means u don't have to have new rubber!
I used to think new rubber was faster because my tires were slowing down than i realized I was using to much or the wrong type of prep! ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
which is way cheaper than tires!
One still has to have a good settup as well as the other stuff
I also don't think new rubber is that much faster at bedrock! we all can agree that prep will outdo new rubber any day of the week at Bedrock, Bedrock is a no bite track which means u don't have to have new rubber!
I used to think new rubber was faster because my tires were slowing down than i realized I was using to much or the wrong type of prep! ??????????????????????????????????????????????????
which is way cheaper than tires!
One still has to have a good settup as well as the other stuff
liquidqwik
Justin Anderson
That's another great point I didn't think of Ben, you would get fewer new racers if they had to buy a set of tires from the track and then give them back at the end of the night. If a racer showed up the 4th night of the year from out of town, he/she would have to buy a set of tires just to race. That's a big entry fee.
As far as new rubber, I've seen Ben, Toby, and Andy win races on old tires against people with new rubber. Didn't seem to matter.
As far as new rubber, I've seen Ben, Toby, and Andy win races on old tires against people with new rubber. Didn't seem to matter.
There was a point and time when there was no tire prep at Bedrock. I know it is hard to believe but it wasn't used the only thing guys were doing was using wd-40 and cleaning tires. The only way to cut cost is to get rid of everything cutting tires and tire prep it would be a hard thing to do but it has to be done. I am not sure how much the cost has jumped at bedrock to run up front everyweek but I know that to run the big events you are talking about spending some money to run up front. Yes, you still need a set up but it seems like with every form of racing it has gotten out of control with cost. It would be nice if people that would still like to race could afford to go kart racing on a normal budget. It will be hard to cut costs at all but maybe there is some way they can do it without it being a pain for the tracks. who knows I am sure wka, ikf, or kart will do their best to take care of it.
So what u r saying is the main reason for kart racing being so exspensive is because of prep and cutting your tires!
$75.00 for a gallon of prep that u can use half of the season!
$100.00 to have your set of tires cutt
thats $175.00 if u shop around u might get these for $150.00.
Lets say Bedrock! does away with prepping and cutting guess what now one can't win with his old 99 model kart cause u took the only advantage he had to compete (prep and cutt tires). But thats OK just spend another $2200.00 or more on a new kart so u can compete!
$75.00 for a gallon of prep that u can use half of the season!
$100.00 to have your set of tires cutt
thats $175.00 if u shop around u might get these for $150.00.
Lets say Bedrock! does away with prepping and cutting guess what now one can't win with his old 99 model kart cause u took the only advantage he had to compete (prep and cutt tires). But thats OK just spend another $2200.00 or more on a new kart
so u can compete!
tobias101
Livin' the dream.........
How does one test for a big track and open tire rule at Bedrock!
You don't, I was just using "your" line from earlier this year about testing a set up for somewhere else.
I don't think anyone had a problem with it before and they didn't need a new kart. So what is your point. Like I said there was a time when people used to just clean their tires. When I raced at Bedrock I didn't always have a new kart or tire prep and I ran up front. So what are you saying would cut the cost of kart racing. So I guess guys that burn up a set of tires every week or every other week because of prep or cutting tires isn't going to cut cost?
Just an example
I wasnt saying that the impound thing was a good idea I was just using it as and example that there is almost no easy way to keep tire costs down. I understand about Burris helping fund the track but maybe that is because if it wasnt for them donating money to tracks to get a tire rule they wouldnt sell near as many tires. Go to any big race with a open tire rule and see just how many racers run Burris and then look at how many of them are up front. I wouldnt own a Burris tire if it wasnt for Bedrock (well maybe one set of soft ones for winter indoor racing) the only thing a Burris tire is good for is they burn pretty.
I wasnt saying that the impound thing was a good idea I was just using it as and example that there is almost no easy way to keep tire costs down. I understand about Burris helping fund the track but maybe that is because if it wasnt for them donating money to tracks to get a tire rule they wouldnt sell near as many tires. Go to any big race with a open tire rule and see just how many racers run Burris and then look at how many of them are up front. I wouldnt own a Burris tire if it wasnt for Bedrock (well maybe one set of soft ones for winter indoor racing) the only thing a Burris tire is good for is they burn pretty.
Times have changed competition is tougher thats why u need new equipment! or should i say it helps i'm sure there r a few people that could win on old karts but not on a regular basis unless they were a pro and no way it could b done without prep.
Who burns a set of tires every week? im talking about Bedrock!
* by the way "back in the day" as u r talking about there was probably that one kart that was winning week in week out chances r he was using prep no one had a clue about it cause it wasn't out.
*anyway the point is as u asked me? do the math! prep or new kart! prep is a way to cut down on the cost of karting! otherwise i challenge u to show up at a track with a old kart and try to win on a regular basis without prep!
I was looking through the Bedrock points and this is what i discovered!Rookie
Rookie B
Junior
Stock light
Stock heavy
All of the top 2 or 3 in these classes had excellent equipment so rather they do away with prep or not u will still have to deal with new karts!
ask these guys they're opinion of what costs more prep or karts? also ask them if they could win nowadays with an old kart.
********* this is my point 34 gfmf *****************
liquidqwik
Justin Anderson
I agree that Burris tires don't hold a chance to Maxxis or Vegas in most cases. But for a local track owner, any donations/benefits to the track is a major help (even if Burris is trying to sell tires.) I wouldn't own many Burris tires either if it weren't for Bedrock. However, Burris or Maxxis or Vega, without the right prep at Bedrock, your going nowhere.
Tobin's right, if you took prep out of kart racing, the newer equipment would still stand out with a good driver. The chassis' are built better, adjustments are easier to make, etc. It would make it harder for the person with an older kart to run up front. However, I witnessed a 1970-1980 Margay win a feature this year at Bedrock with the right prep (on old tires.) That's no joke. She drove the wheels off that thing. She didn't have to buy a new kart to win, she bought $50 worth of prep. It's hard to argue with that!
Tobin's right, if you took prep out of kart racing, the newer equipment would still stand out with a good driver. The chassis' are built better, adjustments are easier to make, etc. It would make it harder for the person with an older kart to run up front. However, I witnessed a 1970-1980 Margay win a feature this year at Bedrock with the right prep (on old tires.) That's no joke. She drove the wheels off that thing. She didn't have to buy a new kart to win, she bought $50 worth of prep. It's hard to argue with that!
circleleft18
Member
Amen to Bedrock being a "prep" and "set up" track. This was my 15 year olds 1st year racing, we ran every night at Bedrock and never did figure out what the right prep was for "used" Burris on a 1996 Ultramax. We did have a adjustable front end too, a cut off wheel and a welder and we changed it a few times to try and get better. He did manage to muster up a 4th in points.
A few times I thought it was motor more than handling and prep, so on Saturday we would head to Coulterville to check the motor, cause we were always pretty decent there. In fact he won 2 features there and never finished out of the top 3 (except the night Cory showed up...lol)
Every other track we went to we were pretty decent too, but with Maxxis (used as well) and even did decent at Shemik with Burris, but never did figure out Bedrock. I learned real quick that stock car adjusments don't work on these things.
Now "back in the day" when I was his age running the Junior class things were alot different. I ran a 100cc 2-cycle on gas. Alky was only for the open classes. We ran grooved tires and no one cleaned them. There were hardly any Briggs classes. Hell we didnt even have rolling kart stands.
I think to be fast at Bedrock you need experience or some help thats experienced. With just about a 10 minute talk with Kevin Musgrave after the races 1 night, we picked up 3/4's of a second the next week, but it was too late there was only 1 week to go.
But if we would of won there with our "1996 Ultramax" we would of been happy to go to tech (no point intended)
Sorry for the long post but I'm sittin in a motel bored to death
and we changed it a few times to try and get better. He did manage to muster up a 4th in points.A few times I thought it was motor more than handling and prep, so on Saturday we would head to Coulterville to check the motor, cause we were always pretty decent there. In fact he won 2 features there and never finished out of the top 3 (except the night Cory showed up...lol)
Every other track we went to we were pretty decent too, but with Maxxis (used as well) and even did decent at Shemik with Burris, but never did figure out Bedrock. I learned real quick that stock car adjusments don't work on these things.
Now "back in the day" when I was his age running the Junior class things were alot different. I ran a 100cc 2-cycle on gas. Alky was only for the open classes. We ran grooved tires and no one cleaned them. There were hardly any Briggs classes. Hell we didnt even have rolling kart stands.
I think to be fast at Bedrock you need experience or some help thats experienced. With just about a 10 minute talk with Kevin Musgrave after the races 1 night, we picked up 3/4's of a second the next week, but it was too late there was only 1 week to go.
But if we would of won there with our "1996 Ultramax" we would of been happy to go to tech
(no point intended)Sorry for the long post but I'm sittin in a motel bored to death
There is a hole lot of cheaten going on at bedrock and Coulterville and the tracks have done NOTHING! So you take prep / cuts out the honest racer should stay home. That is the only thing he has for these CHEATEN BASTARDS and there motors. Now you got people saying no prep you really think these cheaters are not going to prep you are a fool if you do. wka cannot test it. P.S. To cherry picken Tobin the MILLINEUM ****S
Well! well! well! what do we have here the peanut gallery!I'll have u to know the Millineum is a fast kart it just has it's moments! (big tracks) so stop hatting and start participating.
* for the record Mr. Jackson u was cherry picking mid season also so don't forget about that it just so happened i decided to cherry pick u!
