WKA outlaws Tire Prep and Cutting 9/27/06

liquidqwik said:
Carl, there are a lot of preps that work very well and don't ruin your tires. Ashley ran 1 set of 33's from mid season on. We never changed a tire for hot laps, heats, or a feature unless we needed to change stagger (and then it was only the LR.) You are right, there are aggressive preps that will ruin a tire in a short time, but you don't need them to win at Bedrock in the stock classes. It would definitely help out with those big horsepower motors you build! :D

As far as always having a tacky track, well that takes a lot of driving ability out of the game too. Everybody's fast/faster on a tacky track. A race track needs to start off tacky and end of up dry. In the stock and outlaw class, if the track was tacky all night, most likely the most HP would win. I'm not saying setup wouldn't matter, but you know what I mean.

*Ashley and I have looked into the gas meter deal, it will catch most preps, but it won't catch them all. If you figure it out, there's gonna be a lot of big time karting organizations who want to know you.

Justin
Click to expand...


Do you mean Scott????? :)
 
Hey Martin fan stay out of this we know who he"s talking to what are you a school teacher or some thing!!!! Martin fans are a little short on subjects anyway!!! HA!!
some info for everyone to think about
Hi Scott,
Glad you went to our page to see what we do.
The JTR Eagle is a 1 gas Eagle-meaning 1 sensor- not 4 or 6- specifically designed with a cataltyic sensor that picks up all distillates ( petroleum based products) in low ppm range. We took our standard Eagle-which was a 1-6 gas eagle, meaning you can put a sensor in for hydrocarbons- like what is in the JTR Eagle, and an 02 sensor, a Carbon Monoxide sensor, and a Hydrogen Sulfide sensor ( these are the standard 4 gases used in confined space entry for industry-chemical plants, sewage plants etc.) and you can add 2 of about 50 specific sensors we offer for substances such as Chlorine, Bromine, Arsine, Ozone, Nitrogen Oxides ( NOX), Sulfur Dioxide, Hydrogen Chloride etc.. where we come up to 6 sensors.
Since May, Tim Ridely- a parent of a karter just South of Atlanta, and part of WKA, contacted me to find an affordable way to detect prep ( police it) on the track. He had searched for 5 months or so to find such a product, and I was the only one that responded, and we were the only company that had the resources to take a look at the application and see what we can do. So Tim and I spent the first month on our own, using our base 4 gas unit- tested Wet Lap, Goat Pee, etc.. about 25 preps now- on Maxxis Tires and others, and did track tests, timed tests-temperature tests- put the prep on, let it sit for an hour, 2 hours, 12 hours, week, month, etc. to see what parameters we could fall in. For now, we know we can detect prep for tires that have been prepped for at least 6 months in the 50-60ppm range. A new Maxxis tire will show 0 ppm right out of the package. Every time. If a tire runs on a dirt track that has had prepped tires on it, we find that the tire can pick up some and maybe get to 30ppm as an average, so we rule out the first 30ppm.
RKI, as a company- I sent all the preps to our engineering department, and told them what our goal was---- find prep on a tire- and we sent new, and previously prepped tires- and they took the Eagle and re-engineered the sensor block to make it faster to respond, use teflon tubing so nothing sticks, and find the best way to calibrate it to a known hydrocarbon such as Isobutane/IPA or Hexane- to find what works best that covers the range of preps we were testing.
So now, we came up with a lower cost design because we took out some of the stuff we don't need in this application, and brought the cost down so the karting world can afford an analyzer to be used as a policing tool. A single gas Eagle off our shelf for Chlorine, or some other toxic chemical ( our most popular single gas versions- or they choose a smaller instrument we
offer) sells for nearly $3000-4000. That was too much. So the JTR Eagle we can now offer at $1775- to detect the known preps that are out there. Of course, prep companies are not happy, and you may be one. So for the future, we can expand beyond distillates if needed if preps are re-engineered and proven to work with lets say some other chemical like Chlorine, anhydrous ammonia, etc.. ( which really won't soften the tire without a petroleum based solvent- ) and it won't "mask" it for the first 2 laps to allow prep to be then exposed after the "mask" wears off. So in a year if preps include other chemical based substances, we most likely have a sensor we can add to the unit. It will cost more, but depends on how "passionate" the world it to keep prepping with a no prep rule.
We have hundreds of hours into this design and WKA's key interest was safety of the use and storage of prep- somewhat stimulated by the accident last year in Ohio. Proper handling of the preps, gloves, respirators, disposal of it, was seemingly getting out of hand- so a rule was set for no prep.
Prior to finding us, tires were sent to Ohio- Akron Tire and Rubber lab to be destroyed- at a cost of $500 per tire on the top 5 of each race and tested on a $30K gas chromatograph. This test cannot be done on the track, and policing on site was a key too. It was getting expensive. Now, we test the outside of the tire, and we pull the stem and test the inside air of the
tire- on the grid and at the scales. No one is allowed to pull their tires off their karts in the scale area until all 4 are tested again- from the inside in case tires are prepped from the inside. We found one that had a good 6 oz of prep inside the tire and we had readings of 2200ppm or higher just from the air space.
As for calibration, for the first 3 races I attended, we checked it before each race and after. Once we saw no change we've determined that a 6 month interval is best, and the sensor needs to be changed once a year. Tim does all the calibrations at his shop in Atlanta. Sensors are about $200 each and may last a year- but we are recommending a change in 6 months to be safe.
Tim Ridley does this all, and they are only available from him. He packages them with instructions on how to use it, puts it in a case, and is available for questions. We also did a laminated card that attaches to the harness to show you exactly how to use it on racing tires. As for delivery, we can ship units from our CA warehouse within 2 days max. We have over 30,000 Eagles ( not JTR) but total in the field that many have been out for 12 years or more. Prior to the Eagle, we had another unit that was out since 1973 until
1993 that the Eagle replaced. RKI is a $300M company worldwide, we make 8 different sensor technologies, and have production plants all over the world including California. We celebrated 60 years in business last year. So contact Tim Ridley- jtrkarts@bellsouth.net, or phone him at 770-301-4147. He is a karter and can be more specific on the analyzer as used in "your world", I have just explained it from "my" world- industrial safety. Hope this helps an sorry for the long explanation.
Thanks for the interest and let us know if you have any further questions.
Best Regards,
Kevin D. York
Technical Sales Manager
Hazmat Specialist
RKI Instruments Inc
7380 Spout Springs Road
Suite 210-225
Flowery Branch, GA 30542
404-518-6260 Cell
770-967-4798 Fax
kevin@rkiinstruments.com
800-754-5165 Corporate





 
Thanks 6martinfan, I meant Scott. Scott "The Engine Builder" Baur. :) It sounds like RKI Instruments is really onto something with the JTR-Eagle. If it can truely detect everything (even under the 50-60 ppm range) it may revolutionize the karting world again. Dropping the price from $3,000-$4,000 to $1,775 will help out as well, although that's still expensive. With that low of a ppm range, there's gonna be a lot of people throwing tires away. I mean a lot of people. You could't touch a tire with WD-40 on your hands without setting off the alarm. Air filter oil/cleaner would set of the alarm as well. You would have to clean your tires with soap and water because it would eliminate most tire cleaners as well. I'll tell you one thing, the saran wrap companies would love it!
 
Scott Baur #B said:
Hey Martin fan stay out of this we know who he"s talking to what are you a school teacher or some thing!!!! Martin fans are a little short on subjects anyway!!! HA!!
some info for everyone to think about
Hi Scott,
Glad you went to our page to see what we do.
The JTR Eagle is a 1 gas Eagle-meaning 1 sensor- not 4 or 6- specifically designed with a cataltyic sensor that picks up all distillates ( petroleum based products) in low ppm range. We took our standard Eagle-which was a 1-6 gas eagle, meaning you can put a sensor in for hydrocarbons- like what is in the JTR Eagle, and an 02 sensor, a Carbon Monoxide sensor, and a Hydrogen Sulfide sensor ( these are the standard 4 gases used in confined space entry for industry-chemical plants, sewage plants etc.) and you can add 2 of about 50 specific sensors we offer for substances such as Chlorine, Bromine, Arsine, Ozone, Nitrogen Oxides ( NOX), Sulfur Dioxide, Hydrogen Chloride etc.. where we come up to 6 sensors.
Since May, Tim Ridely- a parent of a karter just South of Atlanta, and part of WKA, contacted me to find an affordable way to detect prep ( police it) on the track. He had searched for 5 months or so to find such a product, and I was the only one that responded, and we were the only company that had the resources to take a look at the application and see what we can do. So Tim and I spent the first month on our own, using our base 4 gas unit- tested Wet Lap, Goat Pee, etc.. about 25 preps now- on Maxxis Tires and others, and did track tests, timed tests-temperature tests- put the prep on, let it sit for an hour, 2 hours, 12 hours, week, month, etc. to see what parameters we could fall in. For now, we know we can detect prep for tires that have been prepped for at least 6 months in the 50-60ppm range. A new Maxxis tire will show 0 ppm right out of the package. Every time. If a tire runs on a dirt track that has had prepped tires on it, we find that the tire can pick up some and maybe get to 30ppm as an average, so we rule out the first 30ppm.
RKI, as a company- I sent all the preps to our engineering department, and told them what our goal was---- find prep on a tire- and we sent new, and previously prepped tires- and they took the Eagle and re-engineered the sensor block to make it faster to respond, use teflon tubing so nothing sticks, and find the best way to calibrate it to a known hydrocarbon such as Isobutane/IPA or Hexane- to find what works best that covers the range of preps we were testing.
So now, we came up with a lower cost design because we took out some of the stuff we don't need in this application, and brought the cost down so the karting world can afford an analyzer to be used as a policing tool. A single gas Eagle off our shelf for Chlorine, or some other toxic chemical ( our most popular single gas versions- or they choose a smaller instrument we
offer) sells for nearly $3000-4000. That was too much. So the JTR Eagle we can now offer at $1775- to detect the known preps that are out there. Of course, prep companies are not happy, and you may be one. So for the future, we can expand beyond distillates if needed if preps are re-engineered and proven to work with lets say some other chemical like Chlorine, anhydrous ammonia, etc.. ( which really won't soften the tire without a petroleum based solvent- ) and it won't "mask" it for the first 2 laps to allow prep to be then exposed after the "mask" wears off. So in a year if preps include other chemical based substances, we most likely have a sensor we can add to the unit. It will cost more, but depends on how "passionate" the world it to keep prepping with a no prep rule.
We have hundreds of hours into this design and WKA's key interest was safety of the use and storage of prep- somewhat stimulated by the accident last year in Ohio. Proper handling of the preps, gloves, respirators, disposal of it, was seemingly getting out of hand- so a rule was set for no prep.
Prior to finding us, tires were sent to Ohio- Akron Tire and Rubber lab to be destroyed- at a cost of $500 per tire on the top 5 of each race and tested on a $30K gas chromatograph. This test cannot be done on the track, and policing on site was a key too. It was getting expensive. Now, we test the outside of the tire, and we pull the stem and test the inside air of the
tire- on the grid and at the scales. No one is allowed to pull their tires off their karts in the scale area until all 4 are tested again- from the inside in case tires are prepped from the inside. We found one that had a good 6 oz of prep inside the tire and we had readings of 2200ppm or higher just from the air space.
As for calibration, for the first 3 races I attended, we checked it before each race and after. Once we saw no change we've determined that a 6 month interval is best, and the sensor needs to be changed once a year. Tim does all the calibrations at his shop in Atlanta. Sensors are about $200 each and may last a year- but we are recommending a change in 6 months to be safe.
Tim Ridley does this all, and they are only available from him. He packages them with instructions on how to use it, puts it in a case, and is available for questions. We also did a laminated card that attaches to the harness to show you exactly how to use it on racing tires. As for delivery, we can ship units from our CA warehouse within 2 days max. We have over 30,000 Eagles ( not JTR) but total in the field that many have been out for 12 years or more. Prior to the Eagle, we had another unit that was out since 1973 until
1993 that the Eagle replaced. RKI is a $300M company worldwide, we make 8 different sensor technologies, and have production plants all over the world including California. We celebrated 60 years in business last year. So contact Tim Ridley- jtrkarts@bellsouth.net, or phone him at 770-301-4147. He is a karter and can be more specific on the analyzer as used in "your world", I have just explained it from "my" world- industrial safety. Hope this helps an sorry for the long explanation.
Thanks for the interest and let us know if you have any further questions.
Best Regards,
Kevin D. York
Technical Sales Manager
Hazmat Specialist
RKI Instruments Inc
7380 Spout Springs Road
Suite 210-225
Flowery Branch, GA 30542
404-518-6260 Cell
770-967-4798 Fax
kevin@rkiinstruments.com
800-754-5165 Corporate
Click to expand...
Man, your gonna get it! :D
 
Yes it is expensive!!!! the problem will be finding some one to police the tire & coming up with the $$$$ to pay for it ,I guess we will see what happens at the rule meeting this year.

OVER & OUT!!!
 
Hot Dog Nite

Hey! Scott Its Friday Nite I Have Know Where To Go . Was Thinking About Having A Hot Dog Cook Out . Call Johnny, Brooke, And The Rest Of The Baur Gang And Fill Them In. If You Can't Make It See You At Flying J. Dogfish

If You Realy Want To Shake Up The Prep, We Where Told Calcium Cloride Will Mess Up A Lot Of Preps, Also The Gallon Of Struff We Have From Belclair Speedway Will Have An Effect On Prep.
 
Hey Dog fish, I would call them but by the time I got there the hot dogs would be gone. But your welcome to come get some panacakes at Fln J.


Is Kurt running at tri city or beleville tis weekend???? let me Know Id like to come along

Over & out
 
tires

Theres been alot of talk about tires and prep. Lets talk more about compound tire rule. Whos in favor and whos not?? Majority usally rules, Getting feedback from racers mean alot to track owners and getting racers to show up. We can complain all we want but we as racers can change things locally. Bring changes to everyones attn. Make a no prep rule at your track, the watch for it. If caught ban the racer for 2 weeks. If a big money race ban them for the year. I know racers will prep at home but you have to start somewhere. If there is a chance of getting caught, then less of chance of it happening. Just like being teched. Just walk around pit area and you can see alot of things happening. Thanks for listening
 
Seems like this is only an arguement locals are having about Bedrock. If Bedrock widened their track and banked their curves this would be a non-issue.

Somebody should ask Jess Tompkins if they could open Beaver Creek back up. It is a shame to drive by their and see it sit. Track wasnt always the smoothest, but it was a high banked large 1/8. I really miss it.
 
michealprather

if you would like to make all these changes to bedrock. give frank a call and see what the going price is for the track.

any one can drive around the top of a ice cream bowl :D

whats that old saying if you can't run with the big dogs stay home on the porch.
 
Hey we like ice cream and there is a good chance that might not be the only thing that gets licked:D tell them 04 about or flager!:eek:
 
20racer said:
if you would like to make all these changes to bedrock. give frank a call and see what the going price is for the track.

any one can drive around the top of a ice cream bowl :D

whats that old saying if you can't run with the big dogs stay home on the porch.
Click to expand...


and anyone can slap some prep on their tires.
 
Just thought i would throw my 2 cents in. Im all for the no prep rule but to be honest it will never happen. We have been running the Wka national races and when they came out with this tire rule i was all for it, but it wont last 1 race next year. The talk at the last WKA event was everyone is going to ban the events. Now if you want a tire for everyone to race on where prep wont effect them or cutting them, WKA has a spec tire class that we ran and it will diffently tell you who can drive and handle, because you will be off the track in a hurry if you dont.

Racing is expensive no matter what you race. And the old saying is New Tires are faster than old and it is true in karting. At least prep you can bring your tires back to where you had them. One thing Burris tires does have going for them is they dont like to be cut and inside prep used on them, on the other hand they will slow down after two nights of racing on them.
 
I am not sure what you have been reading but the main point of all this is cutting cost in kart racing not just Bedrock. I don't think WKA is saying hey let's get rid of tire prep and cutting tires because it works to well on flat tracks.
 
michealprater - you're right, widening the track and banking the turns would help out, but let's be realistic about reconfiguring a race track, it's not the easiest thing to do. i've been to tracks with wide banked corners and although more preps will work, the people with the right prep and tires still win. one more thought, should all tracks have wide banked corners? it says a lot for racers who came to bedrock on friday night and then went to coulterville on saturday and won at both places. if the tracks were the same, what fun would that be?

justin
 
I agree....

I agree with Prater, learn to set up a kart and choose right tire compound and pressure and maybe you can learn to drive. lol I'm thinking of getting spiked tires (like they race on ice) so I have lots of bite and no slipping. lol Why not??? No tire rule lol
 
I did race for 12 years. My father ran Beaver Creek for 3 yrs. The way he widened the corners and increased the bank was with a road grater. It was not difficult, just time consuming. Lap after lap after lap.

I am not trying to start debate about where you race. I had a really good time running Bedrock. Just in my personal opinion, I prefer to race on a high banked track. Easy to setup for? Yes. Faster to race on? Yes. I beleive it puts the karts closer making the competion better. Tire selection and prep will always give you an edge. But in close competion the chassis and engine makes just as much difference.

If I offended anyone, I apologize, I did not mean it that way.
 
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