Street stock tech!

mudface said:
Personally There isn't any excuse to why St Louis/Illinois Shouldn't have the Street Stock class in the U.S. and I never could understand why you guys couldn't pull it together as a group Nominate someone like Dave Mclain to be the Director and come up with a bad ass class that would make Promoters want to pay good to put on a show at there track...Mississippi Street Stocks did it and I know you guys can do it better. Me and Dale Ray have been going all over Mississippi, Alabama and East Florida watching Dirt Racing and these tracks pay from 600.00 To mostly 1000.00 to win....even the pure stocks sometimes are racing for 1000.00 several times I've seen. Now I'm not saying the tracks up there will pay that much because they still believe Late Models are the Real Deal but at least if you all sit down came up with a set of rules as a group I'm sure the tracks up there wouldn't have a problem with it. Also when the Mississippi Street Stocks show up at a track one would think the World of Outlaws were racing with so many fans packing the stands because they put on one hell of a show.
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Finally someone agrees with me! There are limited tracks around here that run the "hobby stocks". I say if you would make them more of a street stock class you could draw more cars from other areas. Im fully on board with this.
 
If they Where to make this more of ump street stock class i bet the class would die with 1 or 2 years. Purely because of cost! I know we wouldn't be racing anymore if that was the case because we just can't afford to. That and bet for the guys that can afford it they would just go to the bmod class because that would be the cheaper class. The ump street stocks can out run most of our bmod cars. They are basically a mods with fenders
 
Don't mods run 4 links and street stocks run leafs or metric rear suspension ?

I like the street stocks and wish there was more of them around stl. Imca has a bunch up north and the stock cars. I like the idea of a "stock" car class. The Iowa state dirt trucks are stock cars too.

If someone just took over and convinced the local tracks to run their street stock rules and not be ump sanctioned, I wonder how it would pan out.
 
Willie's Tire shop use to sponsor the street stock but now sponsor the b mod at tri city. Willie's is one of the shops I was talking about having trouble getting used 15" tires. I am there new tire supplier.
 
RACN911 said:
Good descussion with good points here.
I'm not saying the street tires/ Hoosier tires are going to make or brake the class it's just my personal preference.
I'm a Clinton county fella and don't get to tri city as much as the other tracks but when I do I always hear Willies tire shop. Do they sponsor the street stocks or b mods? Either way I thank them for their support of local racing. I'm not familiar with businesses in the tri city area but I would be curious to hear what their opinion on the tire discussion is and if they think that the used tire market would hold up or if new tires would be the only option. I'm in the body shop business and their is a tire shop next door. I talked to the owner and he said that he has quite a bit more 16" but still has a few 15" tires. And you were right JHOP the owner said the new mastercrafts were right at 100 bucks. What's a new Hoosier cost now days?
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A new Hoosier your looking around $125.00. Here is Willies Tire shop number if you would like to call 618-465-9904. They are located on Broadway in Alton Il. just down the road from Fast Eddies Bon Air.
https://www.facebook.com/WilliesTireShop/
 
On street tires in 2001 at the world street stock championship in Ohio, we were allowed Hoosier e-mod tires, everyone was on them but one guy who was on BFGoodrich street tires, he went on to win the show lapping the whole field, this tire nowdays is $145 each, costing more than the Hoosiers, as far as carburetor goes, Jdr carbs has always done our carbs and our legal Rochester flowed 15 cfm less than a willys 500 Holley and on Mullins dyno was no difference, and Dave is right bout hyd cam, after 6300 rpm on dyno it would nose dive off the chart so most are just trying to run to much gear, as far as ump street stocks, the car I built and have won all these shows with down south the rules are more open on everything even roller cams allowed but we still run stock floor pan, stock mount shocks, no wgt jacks, stock four link, and are still beating them with flat tappet cam, it's all about the right combination that fits your driving and your budget, one of the cheapest things on the cars are tires yet some guys run the same ones all year that are not even good enough to start a brush fire but by god they got a $800 wrap on the car, you say you can't afford tires well it's part of it and you have to decide if that class fits your budget, I bought a sportsman for 700$ used all the parts off the roller and sold frame for$400, and saved thousands of dollars, it's possible with hard work and wheelin and dealin!
 
Making up a rules package for any class would be a daunting task but especially one like a street stock or sportsman. First of all what is the class trying to accomplish? Is it intended to be entry level and to be as inexpensive as possible to get started? Or is it intended to be a "stepping stone" class where the racer can start out and then move up taking much of their equipment with them? Should the rules governing the cars be written to make them inexpensive, tougher to work on and set up or easy?

If I were writing the rules for the engines I think I would allow them to more closely follow the Allied Sportsman engine package. While that rule set is more "open" I also think that it is more liberal in ways that will save the racer money.

Using as an example one of my customers' engines, the engine that is in Craig Bessinger's car. It was built to the Allied Sportsman rules package and this is its 5th season of racing and now instead of being in a Sportsman car it is in a B Modified.

Allied allows four different intakes to be used so when I started the development I bought one of each using E-Bay and the swap meet paying no more than $75 each. I ran them all and I chose what I felt was the best and sold the rest. Now that he's switched to running a B mod the intake manifold selection is no longer limited so once again I bought a few intake and did development work choosing the best one of the bunch and again buying used and paying only about $75-80 each.

Changing the intake allowed the engine to make some more power with the same 4412 that has also been used for years and it seems to run very competitively in this new class with only an intake manifold swap.
 
Not many threads stay civil and this one has. Hats of to good discussion I'm glad Brian chimed in. I think a lot of people value your opinion.
 
DaveMcLain said:
Unfortunately there are numerous advantages to running more displacement in a class like this one:

A larger engine will produce a greater "draw" on a small carburetor and thus make more peak torque and more peak HP than a smaller engine everything else being equal. This is not a linear relationship so let's say you had an induction limited 350 inch engine making 350 horsepower and then switched to a 400cid short block. Power would probably not increase to 400 horsepower but it certainly could make it to 375 with no other changes.

The rules limit the engine to running with a flat top piston so if the engine were built with a greater displacement yet still had the same combustion chamber volume and a flat piston the large engine would produce a higher compression ratio. with a 76cc chamber, 7 cc valve reliefs, .043 gasket(4.080 diameter) and a zero deck a 355 makes approx 10.3:1 compression, a 383 takes it to 11:1 and a 4 inch stroke 408 makes 11.7:1 compression.

This class is also limited in the valvetrain area and again this favors running a large displacement. For every 50 cubic inches you can figure that the RPM for peak power will drop about 750rpm and peak rpm maybe even 1000. A hydraulic cam starts to have issues with control much above 6000rpm without some development work so by keeping the RPM down the camshaft can be more effective and using a more aggressive high torque lobe could also be used to an advantage without having durability problems.

I think that handling and driving ability is more important than engine size but what if you have all of those things in one package?
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It was pointed out to me that I had made a mistake with my compression ratio examples. I forgot to put in a - sign when I was keying in the 7 cc I allowed for a valve relief so instead of a flat top with valve reliefs the calculator thought I had a 7cc dome! Sorry about that.

It should be 76 chamber
7cc valve relief
.043 gasket thickness
4.080 gasket bore
0 deck clearance
4.030 bore diameter
This gives a compression ratio of 8.89:1 for a 355, 9.5:1 for a 383 and 10.07:1 for a 408.
 
JMO
We as racers are the ones that are actually creating the need for more teching and the high cost of racing. We as racers always want to go faster. So we push the promoters and sanction bodies to change the rules so we can. I ran a bomber back in the 90s. Everything had to be stock wheels, tires, engine, and suspension. People where pushing for more cam and they allowed it as long as the vacuum was a certain amount. Then eventually they got rid of the vacuum rule. Then came racing wheels and eventually racing springs and shocks and so on. As we push the promotors and sanctions to change the rules it makes it harder and more expensive on them to tech everything. But if we didn't push to get the changes we wouldn't have the late models and A-mods that we do today. Yes I do agree that there needs to be more teching then what is going on at most tracks today. But how to get it all done regularly with out stopping the advancement of technology to go faster in all the class. Also not raise the cost and difficulty to tech everything is goin to hard. And I have been on both sides as a driver, car owner and as an official. Agian JMO
 
We could start Midwest Street Stock Association. Get all the guys from Highland Tri city Brownstown together and make our own rules. Put so much in each race and have 4 track points race kinda like summer nationals for street stocks. Highland Tri City Brownstown and the final race at I 55.
 
Pate11 said:
We could start Midwest Street Stock Association. Get all the guys from Highland Tri city Brownstown together and make our own rules. Put so much in each race and have 4 track points race kinda like summer nationals for street stocks. Highland Tri City Brownstown and the final race at I 55.
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Adam i think this is a great idea but i think it needs to be more than a 4 race points thing, maybe extend it out to 10 and work with tracks on special nights when they are running something and need a support class. The problem i do see with it is, if you let the drivers choose the rules it could get out of hand quick. Some of these drivers want a all out sportsman to run in the factory stocks. I really like Daves idea of the Allied sportsman motor rules. But in order for that to happen you are going to have to get the tracks to agree to those rules to and im not sure all the tracks will be on board with that. I think Brownstown would but not sure Tri City or Highland would. Not sure if you forgot to but you could throw Belle Clair in there as a track to run to. Kind of mix it all up. Great idea though. I think if that's what someone wants to do they need to get the ball rolling now becaus there is alot of planning to do before guys start building cars.
 
From an economical standpoint, the 5 tracks listed in the last 2 posts seem to differ substantially. How many different 3rd members does it take to be the champ? Not throwing rocks, just something to think about. May be a pretty cool idea otherwise.
 
G Dirt said:
From an economical standpoint, the 5 tracks listed in the last 2 posts seem to differ substantially. How many different 3rd members does it take to be the champ? Not throwing rocks, just something to think about. May be a pretty cool idea otherwise.
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I think you can get away with a 683 or 700 at all but Belle Clair and i would run a 733 there but i think you would only need 2 sets of gears.
 
Same gear for b Clair and highland. Same gear for tri city 155. I don't know brownstown. Prob could get away with tri city gear.
 
when Ponder ran my sportsman @ BC he had is geared in the low 8s as best I can recall---- I run a 666 in the 27 car but the weight makes a lot of difference -- a bit snug at TCS - rules package a wheel n tire on each corner and a loose nut behind the wheel -- lets go racin -- as stated great to see a civil thread
 
The idea of creating a unified set of rules and then doing a multiple track championship is great in theory, but in reality most of the guys running in that class just want to race at a local track, not some touring thing even if it is a very limited radius of traveling. You'd get a handful, like 5, that would go to different tracks to run for some kind of combined points thing but the rest would just run at their home track. And probably jump for joy when the "touring guys" took off for another track on a given night.

If you do that, you really aren't solving a cost problem, just creating more costs for anyone who wants to run it. Because you aren't going to run the same setup and gearing at a place like TCS that you run at Belle Clair, and Highland is a little different again. So you'd get guys creating setups, shock, springs, or at the very least changing gears, etc for each track and then it just increases the amount of money to win, not curb costs. Plus additional travel money because no matter what tracks you choose, it is going to put some tracks a further distance away to race in it.

Throw in that you have to convince promoters to go along with a unified set of rules, which is unlikely because promoters want you to a certain extent to be limited as to where you can run so they can count on a certain level of support each week from that class (after all, they have a business to run too and they already know the LM and Mod guys can go anywhere each weekend) and you're probably biting off way more than anyone can chew. And the promoters are probably not going to go for it, so that pretty much nixes it before you even start. It doesn't help them at all.
 
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